Vinson Cunningham:  This is Critics At Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Vincent Cunningham.
Alex Schwartz:I'm Alex Schwartz.
Naomi Fry: And I'm Nomi Fry. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. And today it's our first installment of what's becoming an annual tradition over here at Critics at Large Central, our summer interview series.
Woo.
Vinson Cunningham: Yes. We have so many wonderful New Yorker colleagues writing about all sorts of wonderful things, and over the next three weeks we're each gonna sit down one-on-one with a colleague to bring you a morsel, maybe more than a morsel, maybe a bit of a feast of culture from the wide world of the New Yorker.
Alex Schwartz:Yes, indeed. I'm gonna be talking with Lauren Collins about Americans in Paris.
Vinson Cunningham: I'll be sitting down with Richard Brody to talk about the movies, specifically a tourism.
Naomi Fry: but I'm gonna be up first today. Talking with our colleague Eric Latch. Uh, me and Eric are gonna be talking about how New York City politics has been represented in culture historically about the storytelling that politicians have to do and what kind of figure they cut. And of course, the mayoral can, and of course, the mayoral candidate who's captured everyone's attention right now. Zoran Momani.
Alex Schwartz:Ooh, Ican't wait to hear your conversation.
Vinson Cunningham: I my God, Eric is one of my favorite New Yorker writers and Zoran. I could, I could listen to hours of Zoran content.
Naomi Fry: Zoran, Momani, I could kiss you. Is that what you're saying? Okay. Yeah. Wait. Kissing or not, there's a lot to say about Momani. Um, he won June's Democratic primary and an upset over Andrew Cuomo and is one of the first kind of, kind of a new political figures to burst onto the scene, uh, in years. He's young. He's only 33. He's been really effectively using video and social media during his campaign. he was born in Uganda to a Ugandan Indian academic and a filmmaker. He's been a state assembly member from Queens for only a couple years. And you know, there's a lot to say about the national press's reaction to his primary win as well. So that's why I wanted to talk to Eric about Momani. Um. Eric has been covering this race for a while now, and NYC politics more broadly, and he's really got a sense of how Momani compares to NYC mayors of Old.
So we're gonna talk about that and we're also gonna talk about how the politics of New York City is represented in popular culture. And all of this is to answer the question of why does everyone care so much about who is mayor of the city? So that's today on critics at large, How Zohran Became the Main Character of New York City. 
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Naomi Fry: Eric. Hello. Hi. I'm so excited to have you here with me. we are friends off mic and that is, is
Eric Lach: I hope so.
Naomi Fry: This is news to you.
Eric Lach: Yeah, yeah. I'm,
Naomi Fry: I'm honored to have you say it. Oh my God, Eric, you do look dubious. No, no, I'm, I'm with you, but it's true. I'm not. I swear I didn't just spring this on. Eric, 
Eric Lach: We, we are friends. We are
Naomi Fry: We are friends. We are friends. Um, and I'm excited to have you here in the capacity of, of colleague.
It's such an honor and cot staff, writer. It's really, it's truly honor, um, to have you on the pod. I also know that you're a pod listener. I, I,
Eric Lach: I am a devoted pod listener, and I, as I said to you when you asked me, I felt like. You know, getting asked to prom  by my crush
Naomi Fry: I mean, or
Eric Lach: will you come on the program?
Naomi Fry:  you know, this couldn't be a better endorsement for us over here at critics at large headquarters.
Eric Lach: Remember when we used to share an office?
Naomi Fry: Oh my God, yes. It was so beautiful. In any case, we are here to talk about something that might have some more, you know, community, public importance and that might be interesting to a broader swath of the population
Um, in the beginning of the summer, way back when, you and I had sort of vaguely talked about having a conversation on the show about New York City politics in general, which you, have been covering for a few years here at the New Yorker, and we weren't exactly sure what we would focus on. We were like, are we gonna talk about Eric Adams?
Are we gonna talk about like. Real estate and the politics involved in real estate, et cetera, et cetera. And then, as many of our listeners know, most of our listeners know, Zoran. Momani won the Democratic primary in a pretty big surprise, upset surprise, a total surprise and shock.
And now all anybody wants to talk about is this new young guy in the municipal national stage. And it seemed to me like a really good time to talk about him and to talk about kind of the mayoral race in general, which you have been covering for the past few months. And we'll continue to cover until we have a new mayor.
Eric Lach: we drop.
Naomi Fry: Yes. And so  Eric, maybe we can start with, you giving us kind of a brief primer on Zoran.
Who is this guy, you know, why is he such an object of fixation
Eric Lach: okay. Where to start. Um, so,
 New York City this year Has a primary election in New York City. We have elections on odd years for, for reasons that are completely inscrutable lost to history. They always happen sort of in the hangover of like
Naomi Fry: elections. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: And then they, there's always this big question mark over them about like how much this does or does not connect to, like the big picture.
Right. And, for the past couple like cycles in New York mayoral races, we've had these like big democratic primary fields where like, like in the presidential race where you just have these like clown car primaries with like,
Naomi Fry: it like eight people last time?
Or It
Eric Lach: was last time? Last time. You know, who can even remember? Yeah. But like it was like around 10 last time and also it's like what counts as like a major candidate And then there's all these like sort of minor candidates where it's like you quickly get up to like a dozen people or something.
And so, you know, four years ago, coming outta COVID, coming off of two terms of Bill de Blassio mm-hmm. the city turns to Eric Adams, former ex cop, you know, law and order candidate you know, which had come after, eight years of, a progressive mayor who had, passed all these sort of ambitious social, programs, but also came with by the end, you know, what, what many New Yorkers felt was like, a lot of baggage and just a lot of history, a lot of bad feelings.
Um, the fresh start. Eric Adams pitches the city is like, you know, we need to sort of
Naomi Fry: clean the city up.
Eric Lach: the city's outta control, we need to put, you know, a former cop who is also, you know, a prominent black leader in the city who understands the black community's concerns, understands law and order concerns, understands sort of like how to run the city or at least the power structure of the city, and has been around a long time.
And that's who's elected mayor. Right. And, you know, he goes on to have, an event full.
Naomi Fry: Yes, we can touch, we can touch on the, the many scandals of Adams a little bit later,
Eric Lach: years. That's, Uh, and however,
Naomi Fry: he is the mayor of swagger
Eric Lach: And he comes in promising swagger and he is going out, you know, having delivered swagger
Naomi Fry:.
Yes. Um,
Eric Lach: And, Adams basically last year cuts this deal with the new Trump administration to save his own skin in this criminal
Naomi Fry: Right. Back in April. Right.
Eric Lach: Indicted in back in, back in April. but even before then, there had been all these democrats sort of chopping at the bit to challenge him because of the. 
Naomi Fry: The
Eric Lach: Challenges and failures and fuck ups and embarrassments of, the Adams years. 
 and this large field presents itself.
including controller, a former controller, a couple state senators, whole bunch of politicians who no one's ever heard of, including among them. 
 this young state assembly member. From
Naomi Fry: Queens, right?
Eric Lach: From Queens, Zoran Zohran, who, 
Naomi Fry: presents
Eric Lach: himself, I mean, as the left candidate in the race, the field is so big, it's hard to distinguish sort of anybody.
But he's the one who's got the clearest sort of policy, proposals. And then he's making these videos that people like online. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, sometime around March, April, may, you know, he really just with the backing of like a lot of volunteers mm-hmm. just takes off in like at, velocity that like New York City politics has not seen in quite some time.
Um,
Naomi Fry: was the last time would you say that
Eric Lach: like emerges this quickly?
Naomi Fry: That somebody emerges this quick, quickly?
Eric Lach: I mean, you know,one of the funny things about New York City. Mayors in general is like the history of New York City mayors is not, a litany of like successes and heroes.
It's
Naomi Fry: like interesting
Eric Lach: mostly fuck ups and rogues.
Naomi Fry: Right.
Eric Lach: and then the history of like New York City mayoral elections is not a history of like front runners dominating. Like,
Naomi Fry: that's really interesting. Kind
Eric Lach: of over and over again. You have these like collapses, when people try to become mayor, these people sort of line everything up.
They get all the pieces together, they get the power and endorsements and, they try to do the, the, the Tony Montana thing of like first, you know? 
Naomi Fry: the money, then you get the power. Yeah, exactly. Then you get the mayoral nomination. Yeah.
Eric Lach: Uh, and, time and again there's been kind of, kind of flops.
So, so, so, you know, the most recent one, is the rise of Bill de Blassio in 2013, which. You know, going into that election, there was a speaker of the city council at that time was a alive with Mike Bloomberg, who was thought to be the front runner and then Anthony Wiener had his time in the sun.
Naomi Fry: Oh, yes.
Eric Lach: yeah. Um, too exposed, uh, it turned out. And,
Naomi Fry: uh, too exposed
Eric Lach: and, uh,
Naomi Fry: carlos danger
Eric Lach: And so, so de Blassio is kind of, one like sort of an scene that I've been thinking about.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: although De Blassio is different from Mamdani: in that, like, he had had this long career in New York City politics right before he becomes mayor.
I mean, he'd been around for decades and he'd kind of straddled the kind of, um, institutional democratic world he'd worked for the Clintons. Mm-hmm. Um, he had worked for Andrew Cuomo when Cuomo was HUD secretary.  but then   I mean, Bloomberg in some ways also kind of came out of nowhere I mean, you know, from the complete opposite like end and like Momani, it's like he's like this businessman who's never been involved in politics before. Sure. And then you know, partially because, nine 11 happens and the city is just like completely reeling 
 he kind of comes into power very, just almost before anybody realizes kind of what happened.
Naomi Fry: Yeah. The, the thing with Momani though, as, as you know, and I mean the difference from certainly someone like de Blassio with his, you know, experience and from Bloomberg in a very different way, you know, but perhaps even polar opposite, is this his youngness?
Yeah. Right. His youngness, which I think seems to me to be one of the things that is driving this new velocity, yeah. filled, uh, connection between him anda type of voter that wouldn't have necessarily gotten as. Excited or excited at all about, another candidate. I mean, the man is 33, I mean, and is, has very limited experience, again, for better or worse.
We can look at it
Eric Lach: different, oh, I think, I
Naomi Fry: but he is untainted by the kind of machine of politics.
Eric Lach: sort of this, you know, his strengths and his weaknesses are almost like, like his critics say he's 33 and his supporters say he's 33.
You know, it's like it's like a relief, you know, it's a sort of like,know, it's like, and again, this is like one of those things, it's like, how does this connect to, to national politics? Like democrats across the country are
Naomi Fry: like, like, when are we getting new 
 leadership? You know, it's like this sort of like, been thisquestion, question.
Naomi Fry: Right. This calcified, calcified machine, right? Yeah. That
Eric Lach: many Democrats have been talking about for, for months. Mm-hmm. and here's like literally here's new leadership. You know, here's  
Naomi Fry:   and one of the things about this youngness is that he is what we might call a digital native. Right. Which has figured heavily Yeah. In his campaign. 
I was wondering if maybe we could look together at, um, at a video. 
Eric Lach: Yeah. Okay.
So this clip is from a couple weeks ago. Um, you know, and, and is an example of,Mom Donny's mode of communication. he post-primary, took a trip to Uganda, to celebrate his wedding, with family and friends and, kind of an anticipation of discussion and criticism and sort of the kind of usual kind of ways that these, these sorts of moves from politicians get problematized.
Eric Lach: He just kind of leaned into it and went straight at it.
ZOHRAN CLIP
Naomi Fry:  This I think is a really good example of what, 
Zoran is good at and why his campaign has been so successful. And so, you know, he's become so quickly ascendant. What do you, what do you see in this video?
What is his skillset that he's bringing to the table? A couple things. Like,
Eric Lach: one is like. Coming out of the De Blassio years, one of the frustrations that New Yorkers had with De Blassio was like an inability or like an disinterest in the public performance of leadership.
Yeah. And being mayor. Yeah. And like, he
Naomi Fry: he just wanted to go to the gym.
Eric Lach: He, he know, it's like, he, it's like
Naomi Fry: that is just,
Eric Lach: you know, like in some ways, like Adams, you know, the, the fact that the city voted for Adams was like, I'll play mayor, you know, I'll, I'll be the mayor.
Yeah. That's the swagger
Naomi Fry: thing. I'll give people FaceTime. Exactly. I'll, I'll shake their hands. I'll say, how are you doing, brother?
Eric Lach: be out and about. Yeah. You know, like, you'll see me and, And Zorn's doing that too. Mm-hmm.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: Uh, playing to a, different audience, you know, than the one Adams did.
 but like, you know, just a kind of, facility and delight
Naomi Fry: mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: In public performance and in just being in front of the camera. a kind of like knowing, like wink wink. let's just make up a bunch of New York post headlines, you
Naomi Fry: Right. Like, he's having fun with it. He's
Eric Lach: having fun, And, uh,
Naomi Fry: and he's showing himself also to be thick-skinned in a sense. it's sort of like a I'm having fun with it, but also Fuck you.
Eric Lach: it brings people into the conversation. It gives people a sense of, of story and of, uh, you know, one thing I spent a long time thinking about during the primary mm-hmm. Um, is just like, you know, it's running all these volunteers, like knocking doors, right?
And there's been this like long debate in New York City and elsewhere in the country among political people about like the efficiency of knocking doors, like to sort of get voters out and sort
Naomi Fry: like whether it works or not, whether it works.
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: Mm-hmm. And, I'm not gonna like parse that debate right now, but kind of what I realized is, so ON'S campaign, like was sort of picking up steam.
Was that just. whether or not it works knocking doors, it makes for good content to tell people that you're like knocking doors. That's such a,
Naomi Fry: a great way to put it because the efficacy of it. in this day and age. What you're saying, I think, Eric, is that even if boots on the ground doesn't necessarily work in terms of like, oh, people will actually come to the polls if we knock on their door in the Bronx.
Yeah. We could film ourselves knocking on the door in the Bronx. Yes. People not in the Bronx. Yes. And in the Bronx too, maybe. Yes. We'll see it and respond to it.
Eric Lach: knock on the door is heard like through the internet by like all these other people. 
Naomi Fry: Right.  a politician's narrative is a huge part of their appeal or their, like, you know, ability to repulse voters, right.
Like an unsuccessful narrative or a narrative that doesn't connect is a handicap, obviously. So What is Zoran saying about himself?
Uh, in his videos and his public appearances recently, for instance, he had this video where Jamal Bowman took him Wutang to a Wutang Clan concert, and he met backstage with Wu-Tang members and with Killer Mike. And, you know, all these like rap kind of grates a very important, the New York texture and landscape.
Yeah. That is one thing that kind of strikes me when I'm thinking about like, what is he trying to say with this sort of thing.
Eric Lach: But then he goes and he goes backstage at Madison Square Garden and he is talking to like rappers about affordability.
Naomi Fry: That's, yes.
Eric Lach: you know, he just takes this policy platform and he is just like shopping it around all over.
He is like taking it with him wherever he goes. Right. You know, and that's the story that people are following along. It's like, let's watch the, the guy talking about affordability Jumping into. The ocean off Coney Island, like, you know,
Naomi Fry: like Right. Like the polar bear kind of thing.
Just to talk about like freezing the rent. Here I am at the freezing water,
Eric Lach: you know, here he is in the street cart, you know, with the vendors. Like, here he is 
Naomi Fry: Backstage. Mm-hmm. Madison
Eric Lach: It, it's, like, it's a, it's a visual projection of a political discussion.
Naomi Fry: Yeah. Yeah. And, and so as opposed to like, okay, someone like, we haven't mentioned Andrew Cuomo yet. Who Right. Rim shot. Cuomo, of course.
Yes. Longtime, governor of New York lost big, big bigly to Zoran. Yes. And yet is still running, you know, gonna be running as an independent Yes. Because he lost the Democratic primary. Adams is gonna be running as an independent as well. What kind of story are they telling? Like, what's Cuomo's story, for instance, in this world building?
Eric Lach: I'll, and I'll pause here to say like, we're like yucking it up, but I, like, before the primary, like I, I completely like, you know, Zoran was like ascending and, you know, it was clear that like, basically he had distinguished himself from the other Democrats running who were not named Andrew Cuomo.
Mm-hmm. But, going into primary day, uh, in late June, it was like Andrew Cuomo looked like he was just gonna be the next mayor of New York. Right. 
Naomi Fry: and was that, was that because of, I mean, the polls I know were until right before the, the primary, the polls seemed in his favor.
Yes. Right. But also just like this, the story of kind of unbreakable power and the kind of machine of politics that he seemed to be telling, if, if I'm correct, was part of the thing of like, yeah, he's gonna win. Like nobody's gonna be able to shatter his hold on the city.
Eric Lach: it was old school power politics. Mm-hmm. It was like endorsements and institutional support and money.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: And, you know, experience quote unquote versus like upstart energy. Mm-hmm. I mean, that was the, I mean, People got behind Cuomo that like just a couple years ago had called on him, Cuomo resigned as governor in a sexual harassment and abuse of power scandal. That was like, the idea that he would return to public office, you know, just a few years later, public life, few years later was sort of unthinkable then.
And yet, you know, he lined up just everyone, you know, and just, it was just fear, you know? I think, I think, I think, I think there's no other, there's no other, I
Naomi Fry: there's no other don't hurt me. It
Eric Lach: just, you know, it was just, he I think the simplest way that I've been thinking about is basically like Cuomo. Made a bet that the election would be about crime, public safety.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: And Joran made a bet that it would be about affordability and Right.
cost of living.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. And
Eric Lach: that, you know, the voters responded, to that. And then sort of down from there, sort of trickling down from there is all sorts of like, stylistic differences and mm-hmm. And political differences and you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Naomi Fry: Yeah. I mean, I think it's also interesting to think how the sort of digital. Nativeness that we mentioned as an absolute positive for Zorn's campaign also presented its own kind of potential pitfalls. You know, I mean, he's 33, he has like almost all millennials, a vast digital footprint on the internet that he's been collecting for the past, like 20 years, you know, since he was a teenager, probably.
Or, and while his, his opponents, his main opponents, you know, like someone like Romo, someone like Adams, you know, they're men in their sixties, right? They don't have that quote unquote baggage Yeah. That people can kind of like, pour through in a kind of like, let's cancel him type way. Right? 
And so, what are your thoughts about that, about this kind of like, digging through the crates of, of the past? Again,
Eric Lach: I, I think that like basically what his critics thought would be weaknesses in, in many cases for his supporters were like the very things that were 
adding, I think to his, like, you know, people feeling like they could relate to this guy. It's,
Naomi Fry: a, it's what whatever people might say about it is authentic, you know?
I, I mean,
Eric Lach: it just, it was like not distant from people. 
 And so I think like people, like, you know, again, we're talking about like democratic party primary voters, you know, so it's like
Naomi Fry: they're knowledgeable about the context usually.
Eric Lach: Not even that, it's like, you know, you're not running in a Republican primary and like. Missouri, you know, again, these things that were like pitched I think before the primary as kind of like, oh no, this is what's gonna do him in, 
 he made a case that, you know, no, he was gonna reach people exactly through those ways.
Naomi Fry: so we're not the only ones who are interested in New York City Power Brokers. Martin Marty Scorsese too.
In a minute we'll consider the many pop cultural depictions of the political machine on critics at large from the New Yorker..
:: MIDROLL 1 :: 
Eric? Yeah. This is a culture show so far. We've been talking politics. I'm so sorry. Politics. No, no, I'm, no, no, I invited you to talk. Politics and politics are also culture in their own way, but I think. It would be great if maybe, we can turn to like, actual culture and think about, thank God how TV shows and books and movies, have, use the, the kind of like, machinations of like New York City politics and the machine of mayoral politics as, as fodder.
Yeah. Right. because it's definitely something that's been mythologized in art over like, many, many years. Are there any particular texts what springs to your mind first when I say the words New York City politics,
Eric Lach: uh, where to
Naomi Fry: where to start, where to start.
Eric Lach: mean, I think,
Naomi Fry: Do you wanna start with Gangs of New York? Maybe. I
Eric Lach: wanna start with Gangs of New
Naomi Fry: Okay. So Gangs of New York, The 2002 Scorsese movies started in Leonardo DiCaprio, Daniel De Lewis and Cameron Diaz 
kind of randomly, um,and it's about 19th century. Mid 19th century. Uh, yes, New York City politics. It's Civil
Eric Lach: War era,
Naomi Fry: War era, 1860s. Yeah. and I told you before we started taping that I haven't seen this movie since it came out. and I remember not liking it very much.
Yeah. And I think it was because it was kind of like the moment of transition between Scorsese using, People like, you know, Pesci and Robert De Niro transitioning into the young Leonardo DiCaprio and you being like, what the, who is why? Yes. He can't hold this, et cetera, et cetera.
But I, I want you to tell me a little bit about the movie. Yes. because I, I, I know a lot of people like it and that it is a, a very important text for kind of like New York City politics. I love,
Eric Lach: this movie. Mm-hmm. I love this movie. and you know, part of why I love this movie is 'cause I think Daniel Day Lewis is incredible in
Naomi Fry: it. Mm-hmm. Um,
Eric Lach:  but really why I love this movie is because it does the thing that I think the best kind of literature and culture about New York City and New York City Stories does, which is it plays with fact and fiction.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: It's sort of about like myths that also kind of make gestures at. Reality.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: the book it's based on, which is called The Gangs of New York, um, by a journalist named Herbert Asbury. 
 It's published in 1928. And it's, basically this collection of kind of legends, and tales of, and sort of like, gothic stories of New York City underworld. Mm-hmm. Um, and so like build a butcher, the sort of Danny Daily Lewis characters sort of his, myth is told there in this kind of like Paul bunion ish way, and like the dead rabbits and the, Bowery Boys and the way that street gangs and violence feeds into politics and power in New York. Right, right. And that kind of story, which is like a very Scorsese kind of arc. Yeah.
But again, they're like, Asbury is a journalist and he's making claims of like, this is real, these are real
Naomi Fry: These real stories. Mm-hmm. Um,
Eric Lach: the gangs in New York is also a big source text for, um, one of my favorite books, 
 low Life. Mm-hmm. By Lucy San. Mm-hmm. Um, And um, the way that the kind of, character of the street and the dichotomy between, like, one of the things in gangs in New York, the movie that I love the best, is when they have  these actually happen.
They would have these, um, you know, uptown rich folk would do these. Tours of the slums of like the, you know, gangs of New York is set in the Five Points, which was like the most notorious of the New York City slums. And you know, there was all kinds of, like, there's, Leonardo DiCaprio's character grows up in the old brewery, which is this like decrepit old factory building where like supposedly like 15,000 people lived at one time.
You know, And then like, kind of the thing that I think they gift us is like grittiness as a quality. Yes. the kind of like seediness of New York 
Naomi Fry: But it's what's interesting to me too is this sort of like, how does that disgustingness right of these sort of rogues and.
Outlaws and, the gritty streets and and so on. How does that interact with politics? I mean one of the main things, as I recall it, from watching Gangs of New York years ago was the whole Tammany Hall thing. Yes. and which was kind of like the,  organization, you know, machine that kind of, uh, animated in, in kind of brutal and, uh, usually at least somewhat criminal ways. The Democratic party. can you tell us a little bit about Tamini Hall?
Eric Lach: yeah,  Tamy Hall is the Democratic party political machine that kind of really comes to power in the middle of the 19th century.
Sort of roots are earlier, but sort of really comes to the fore. And, it's basically a bunch of crooks run the town.
Naomi Fry: Yeah.
Eric Lach: Yeah. Like that's what it is. it's basically about power and patronage. Yeah. And, control and, the way it kind of like feeds into the stories of New York has to do with like, basically truth and hypocrisy
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: whose truth.
Mm-hmm. And like, so basically in Gangs of New York, you have the figure of, boss Tweed.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: Who's this early, Tammy Hall. He's like the most notorious of the Tam Hall bosses in gangs of New York. He's played with, popeyed. Gusto by, uh, Jim Broadbent and you know, and he is the one who gives this speech to build a butcher Daniel Day Lewis's character,  
        GANGS OF NEW YORK CLIP 
Daniel Day Lewis is kind of nativist, kind of like Maggie and kind of figure of like America for Americans, right? And, boss Tweed is like kind of like, well we need the Irish 'cause we need their votes, you know, and that's how we keep control of the money, right?
And that's how we can keep control of the power. And it's sort of like kind of mutant idealism Tammany was infamous for these kind of, ways of like revealing hypocrisy, you know, bo both in their own members and in sort of their, their enemies.
Yeah. So like actually Citizen Kane
Naomi Fry: Oh, like, is Oh, interesting, okay. Is like.
Eric Lach: Boss Geddes, who's the guy who does in Orson Wells, like Citizen Kane's character by revealing to the world that Kane is like not a family man. He is having an affair with his, failed opera singer girlfriend.
and basically is like. Get outta this race and stay outta politics, or I'll like reveal, you know, like your infidelity to the world. Yeah. And Cain tells him to fuck off and then Gettys ruins him.
Right. and, these figures, I mean, you know, what they were about is like these arguments about like. What power is for and what it can do. Yeah. And they were like very cynical debates, like about like, to expect government to like, be like, good for everyone is
Naomi Fry: naive.
Eric Lach: And so basically what it's about is like your friends
Naomi Fry: as much as you can for yourself and your friends and your family.
Eric Lach: And it's, very Trumpian, you know?
Naomi Fry: It's, no,
Eric Lach: very Trumpian. and it's the same way that Trump holds up hypocrisy to like Democrats' noses.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. And it's like the
Eric Lach: whole like, sort of like, oh, is America so innocent kind
Naomi Fry: thing. You're just as bad, et cetera. Yeah.
Eric Lach: the kind of thing that like Tammy Hall bosses you know, presented themselves to the world or the public image of them that lasted.
Naomi Fry: And Trump is, you know, a born and bred New Yorker of course. And, and
Eric Lach: political
Naomi Fry: and a classic political boss. and I think this sort of, um. Fight between like the hopeful desire for innocence and honesty, vis-a-vis a kind of corrupt machine. You know, like a movie like it, this isn't exactly City Hall, it's more the NYPD, but like a movie like Serpico or something like this Sidney Lu Ette movie starring Al Pacino from 1973, where, Frank Serpico Pacino is kind of like an honest cop and he comes against this machine at every turn that is the corrupt NYPD, um, that is trying to force him to his knees.
You know, and
Eric Lach: not just an honest cop, but a hippie cop.
Naomi Fry: A hippie
Eric Lach: a kind of avatar of like youth culture and like idealism. Yes. You know, running up against like the old ways and the old machine. And the
Naomi Fry: it time to let the old ways die? Exactly. and you know, it's interesting to look at this.
I mean, this is such a race through a, a very rich history. So  there's so much we're missing, but it's so kind of curious to ask or to think about how is this kind of like. Matching up with what we see in the city today. You know, there's like an enormous wealth disparity. There's an affordability crisis.
The city's a mess, quote unquote, you know, sort of like post COVID contraction, and then like the emergence of this kind of like bright-eyed, progressive candidate, like Zoran, you know, Of course it doesn't map on Exactly. I'm just kind of like positioning it as a kind
Eric Lach: lot. I think.this is, like, you know, like in, in the late. 19th century, early 20th century when you had these Tam Hall bosses with delightful names, like Honest John Kelly and Charles Silent Charlie Murphy. you start to get at the end of the 19th century, the rise of this figure who at the time was known as the reformer. Yes. And its sort of age of optimism
They were like basically upper. Class New Yorkers mm-hmm. Who were sort of presented to the city. So like, boss Tweed famously went down in like a huge corruption scandal. And you know, in the aftermath of that, like Tammany pledged to like kind of clean itself up or whatever, but at sort of certain times, basically the machine would go too far and there'd be this kind of like throw the bums out, kind of, you know,
Naomi Fry: they would get too greedy,
Eric Lach: greedy, too blatant, you know, and then there's this sort of like natural reaction to that, right? And so like the, early figures that counter that tend to be these kind of like upper crust white New Yorkers who sort of are like above it all, and sort of unthought,
Naomi Fry: Mm. Um,
Eric Lach: and clean… I’m talking about figures like William Strong, Seth Lowe, John Perro Mitchell, the famous boy mayor.
And, they would basically say we can clean up city government. Mm-hmm. And they would often fail. They would come in and then they would often like, just kind of flop or people would get sick of them, or you know, they'd actually turn out, that they'd be sort of more loyal to their, rich buddies than, the city at large.
And then Tammany would come storming back into power. Um, and, then we get these figures that like break this dynamic that are like, I mean the big one is like LaGuardia, Al Smith, also the governor is sort of slightly different. Mm-hmm. I think these guys who basically like come in, like sort of introduce the idea of like modern government, modern politics as we think of it now in New York City, which
Naomi Fry: which is characterized by what, as opposed to the older way,
Eric Lach: it's basically professionalization of government.
in the twenties and thirties especially sort of in, during the new deal is like, basically when a lot of this, there's just basically it's also about the money to do it, like how big the city government should be.
 and then kind of what it can do. Yeah. and so basically like these figures become, again, the, the sort of the push pull in, like the sort of stories that we tell about New
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Um,
Eric Lach: often it's this tug between the machine and the reformer.
Um, you know, and, and it's sort of like, naked honest power, you know, versus like, you know, risking it with idealism. Um, right. And, and, and sort of who wins in that kind of struggle. I mean, Batman is all about this stuff.
Naomi Fry: Batman. Exactly.
Eric Lach: You know, it's like, that's,
Naomi Fry: so, I, I didn't think about this, but that's so interesting. I mean, yeah. Yeah. It's the lone hero. Coming out at night Yes. And cleaning up this town. Yes. You know?
Eric Lach: know? Yes.
Naomi Fry: That's so interesting. 
Eric Lach: Batman comes outta like the late thirties, like, like New York is thinking all about this Gotham City. I mean,this is even like in the Christopher Nolan, you know, universe of Batman, like Harvey Dent, the like White Knight da.
Yeah. Who then basically turns bad and has half his face obliterated and then is sort of revealed to the world as this monster. Like these are the kinds of, tropes 
push pull between the sort of the gravity of the machine and, the sort of directness and bluntness of power politics versus like, the risk of idealism and the perils of idealism. and, the hope and then often failed promises of reformers.
Like, yeah, that's, the history of New York City politics.
Naomi Fry: New York looms large in the cultural imagination, but why do people in other states or even other countries care who the mayor is?
This is critics at large from the New Yorker. Stick around.
:: MIDROLL 2 :: 
So Eric, one thing that I've been thinking about over the last couple months, I mean, we care obviously about the New York mural race.
You care about it professionally of course, because that's like hopelessly. That's hopelessly because that's your area of coverage. It's one of your beats. But we also just care about it because we both live in New York, 
But the question is why do people outside of New York care, like why do people in America care? Why do people internationally care? Why is the New York mural race and who's gonna be mayor of New York?
Such kind of a lightning rod, for people all over, not just here. Yeah. Like, who cares, really.
Eric Lach:  I mean there's like practical and material political reasons that I think that's true. But I, I also think, you know, I try to think about, when I work on my stories, like what the reader will get, who doesn't live here.
 and I often think about, um, something that happened to me in 2019.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: I was in Iowa. I was following the
Naomi Fry: I remember you brought me refrigerator magnet.
Eric Lach: because this
Naomi Fry: Kiss Me, I'm out Iowa
Eric Lach: because I
Naomi Fry: See friends.
Eric Lach: Yeah. That, that was back in our office, our joint
Naomi Fry: office.
Eric Lach: days. Yes. Anyway, so I, I was in Iowa following around the Democratic candidates for president. Mm. And, I had met some sort of party, you know, activist organizer types in Cedar Rapids. And, one night, a group of them invited me to dinner and they were like, we're gonna go to the best restaurant, Cedar Rapids.
And I was like, sounds great. Where are we going? And they're like, uh, meet us at this place. It's called Cobble Hill.
Naomi Fry: Oh my God.
Eric Lach: And Cobble Hill is the name of a, you know, very lovely gentrified neighborhood in Brooklyn. and I show up at this restaurant and it's just like. It's a Brooklyn restaurant that's been like exported, to the Prairie, and it's packed.
It's like, I think the chef had cooked in New York City for.
for
A bunch of time. And then he went home to Cedar Rapids and he opened up his little Brooklyn restaurant 
 you know, but it was like, to me it felt, you know, it's like, I actually experienced this a lot in Iowa. Sort of like, 
All the little towns in Iowa have a little coffee shop now where you can get like a latte. And it's like that, that's not all just like New York feeding into that, but New York is a big part of that. You know, New York is just like,
Naomi Fry: we, we do kind of like pace the culture in.
Eric Lach: Mm-hmm. You know, that there's the dialogue between the city and the rest of the country is a very active and productive one. Mm-hmm.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: Despite what, like, enemies of the city, like want Americans to believe. It's like we are a big part of America here. Yeah. And it matters, you know, it just flat matters.
Yeah. Kind of like what we decide here and like to pull it back to the political,
Naomi Fry: it's like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: You know Things that are tried here that because we are at scale and we have like the money to try things, then end up, you know, politically sort of like dispersing around the country.
Mm-hmm. And then also it's just like, there's a lot of power here. So like, we produce leaders that often end up,  being like important leaders. I mean, it's not for nothing, but it's like Trump,
Naomi Fry: Chuck
Eric Lach: Hakeem Jeffries, a OC. It's like mm-hmm. These are, these are New York City people.
Right. Um, right. And, I think that, that, to forget that part of the story kind of risks missing the story.
Naomi Fry: And do you think people see this or how much, not just people, but you as a
kind of analyst and constant, um, temperature checker of, of this race and the Zoran versus Cuomo and Adams of it, see this as a kind of harbinger of either things to come or a reaction against national politics?
I mean, beyond the municipal Yeah.
Eric Lach: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, it's like, I think what Zoran has reminded everybody is that part of what New York contributes politically to the rest of the country is a lot of like left energy. I mean, a OC had done that before him, you know, and, and sort of like, 
 it's easy to forget now, but it's like before, before primary day, it was like, there was this question about whether the left was sort of receding in New York,   but that's one of the things that like Mom Donny's win has reminded everybody of, you know, that it's like there are, many, many people in this city who are, Willing to, dedicate their time and effort to like supporting a certain, political agenda and, and political goals. You know, and like when those people get together, they could be quite powerful. Yeah. 
Naomi Fry: I mean there's been a lot of fearmongering on a kind of more national level kind of Fox News. A concerted effort about this kind of socialist Muslim, uh,
Eric Lach: neo-Marxist sleeper cell,
Naomi Fry: neo Marxist sleeper cell. Like, and also a lot of kind of backlash about like, this is actually a child of privilege, right? 
But in back in New York, he's trying to impose on us the, the kind of like Marxist Yes. Politics that he supposedly is, running on  
Eric Lach: I mean, these are, the dichotomies that like reformers have had to deal
and, and kind of making a cartoon of New York, especially to like, the rest of America is like a long tradition too.
Yeah.
Naomi Fry: Yeah.
Eric Lach: But it's like,  we contain multitudes as the poet
Naomi Fry: said. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 
Eric Lach: that's the challenge ahead of, ahead of Mamdani.
And that's the challenge for like any, reformer left mayor that presents himself?
Naomi Fry: Yeah.
 Eric, you know, I've been thinking it's like we talk a lot about para-sociality, right? We talk about it with, uh, podcast hosts.
No, we, we and the culture, we and the culture, you know, in, in, in recent years, I think it's become, a term of art. 
How we invest certain figures with. Um, affect, you know, emotion, belief, hope, dreams, uh, without necessarily knowing if, if they will fulfill those hopes and dreams and emotions and all of that. And of course this happens in politics. We've seen it. We, you know, the, the, the politician is father or very occasionally mother, you know, or the politician is a kind of like strong leader or like,  or change maker, you know, it happened certainly with Obama and happens with Trump. Surely, you know, will you have a beer with this guy? Yes. Will you wanna have, is he your friend? And so I think this is a question with Zoran as well, you know, the kind of parasocial relationship that voters have with these figures  Is that always kind of bound to failure or is that something that politicians in, in the case of someone like Zoran who's just new and untested and so on, like something that can bear itself out in a positive way, in some way
Eric Lach: I mean, I think that this is one of the benefits of, of telling New York City stories because these sorts of like, they probably didn't call them parasocial relationships at the turn of the 20th century, but like certainly
Naomi Fry: um, I myself had a parasocial relationship with Boss Tweed.
Eric Lach: Exactly. You know, I mean, perhaps not Boss Tweed, but certainly Al Smith, who was, um,
Naomi Fry: a reformer
Eric Lach: was a, you know, he was the governor of, of New York in the twenties, and he was famously, he  grew up in a Lower East side tenement and was sort of an up from the streets guy he was sort of a precursor to FDR in all sorts of ways.
And then FDR sort of like, you know, in the complete opposite way is this like Patricia kind of figure but like, you know, people felt that they knew him. That he was not just the president, 
Naomi Fry: I mean, he used these fireside chats the way today's politicians use TikTok.
Exactly.
Eric Lach: Exactly. this discourse now about like, does Momani or some other kind of like politician who's a hit, like they don't talk like traditional politicians, but I, think they don't talk like failed politicians.
The good politicians have always found a way to kind of like Yeah. Transcend and connect.
Um, and is it always bound to failure? I mean, you know, it's like New York has examples of both. LaGuardia is like remembered as maybe New York City's best mayor ever
Naomi Fry: protagonist of the 1959 musical filo.
Eric Lach: Incredible.
Naomi Fry: I mean, who knew really?
Eric Lach: we get a revival? You know? Yes. Um, the counter to LaGuardia, who's sort of seen as this great success, 
 Is John Lindsay, uh, who's the mayor of New York City, in the sixties. Lindsay is like this, you know, charismatic. Liberal Republican reformer who comes in in this kind of like, kennedyesque wave of like, here's the guy and he's gonna be the savior and then   by the end, I mean he, he, you know, he makes de blassio look like, you know, the most popular like guy on the planet. he's blamed for setting the city up for its like crises in the seventies. Um, you know, and it's like,we we've chosen both ways.
Yeah. We've seen both
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Um, and, 
Eric Lach: that's, that's the city history.
Naomi Fry: Who can tell, But, sometimes I wonder, you know, I've lived in the city now for like 20 years, 
 And sometimes it seems to me, can we say that it's like the New York populace is just like a mayor hate, like, is it fun to hate the mayor? Clearly it's,
Eric Lach: it's,  we need them to stand up there and take it, you know, it's like we, like that's part of what we ask mayors to do as part of the job of mayor.
Naomi Fry: It's been called the second hardest job in politics, right. After being, after being president. Yes.
Eric Lach: And it's like, it's a job with high visibility, big power in some ways, kind of limited power in other ways, but often ends up being kind of a receptacle for all sorts of anxieties and frustrations.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm.
Eric Lach: And kind of, anger about, you know, the difficulty and unresolved, you know, paradoxes of city life. city
Naomi Fry: city life and American life in a way as well. Yeah. American life. Mm-hmm. You know, and
Eric Lach: we asked it's basically what we're asking 'em to do is like resolve impossible problems.
Um, and, some of them can sometimes like, you know, work it out for a little bit, but very few have kind of managed. To do it over a prolonged period of time. And, no one solves things permanently.
Naomi Fry: So what I'm hearing from you, Eric, is you're not gonna run for mayor.
Eric Lach: I am. I am not.
Naomi Fry: I am now announcing my candidacy for Mayor of New York City.
Eric Lach: elected, I will not serve, et cetera, et cetera.
Naomi Fry: Eric, thank you so much. Thank you for sitting with me today
Eric Lach: for enduring my,
Naomi Fry: Oh my God. Rants. It was a pleasure and an honor.
 This has been critics at large. This week's episode was produced by Michelle O'Brien. Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Conde Nast's. Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadra composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with Mixing by Mike Kuman.
You can find every episode of critics at large at New yorker.com/critics. Now, next week, Alex steps into the solo host chair. She's going to be, she's going to be talking with our colleague Lauren Collins, about a totally different city, Paris. Make sure you tune in.