COLD OPEN Vinson Cunningham: Hi everybody. How you doing? Audience: Woo. Naomi Fry: Hey guys. Alex Schwartz: Hello. Vinson Cunningham: you so much Naomi Fry: Hello. Vinson Cunningham: Hello everybody. I'm Vincent Cunningham. I'm a staff writer at The New Yorker and. and. Very crucially to your attendance here, a co-host of the critics at large podcast. And if you couldn’t tell already, we’re coming to you live from the New Yorker festival. MUX - BEGIN INTRO Vinson Cunningham: This is Critics At Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Vincent Cunningham. Alex Schwartz: I'm Alex Schwartz. Naomi Fry:And I'm Nomi Fry. Vinson Cunningham: Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture and how we got here, Alex Schwartz: and this week we are sharing a conversation. We had live on stage at the New Yorker Festival just a couple of weeks ago. Naomi Fry: Yes, every year we get to do a version of the show in front of an audience of New Yorker fans, subscribers, what have you. And this year we got to have a conversation about taste with producer, writer and host, Padma Lakshmi. Vinson Cunningham: So today we're sharing it with all of you so that listeners who weren't able to make it to the festival can still be part of the fun. And by the way, if you were there, shout out to you. Thank you as always. Alex Schwartz: Enjoy. Vinson Cunningham: We’re going to be joined in just a minute by the incredible Padma Lakshmi. Padma, yes. Padma is an Emmy nominated producer, a television host, a food expert, and a New York Times bestselling author. Padma served as a host and an executive producer for 19 Seasons of the Amazing Top Chef, um, which was nominated for 47 Emmy Awards during her tenure. That's a lot of Emmy nominations. Alex Schwartz: It's so many Vinson Cunningham: her newest project is a show called America's Culinary Cup for CBS, which will feature the country's most decorated chefs. Basically, as you know, Padma is a fixture not only of food culture, but really culture writ large. And we're so happy to have her here with us today. guys, like what, what's the Padma verse that really speaks to you? Naomi Fry: I mean, she's a judge. She's a famous, famous judge. Uh, she is, uh, uh, you know, was such a fixture on, on Top Chef. She was like part of our, you know, kind of ambient TV culture for so long. 19 seasons, as you said. Alex Schwartz: you know, I was always a little bit terrified of Padma from, um, top Chef, which I think is an appropriate reaction to have to her. Because she is exacting and she's a person of great taste and judgment. Then I watched Taste the Nation and I was like, oh, there's a whole other side to this wonderful person. Um, if, you know, I think probably a lot of people in this room have seen Taste the Nation. It's the show where Padma goes around the United States and travels to different communities and learns about a lot of cultural, very specific cultural cooking in different places around the country. And it's a beautiful show. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. And sort of riding on the wind of that beautiful show is the new, um. It, you can't really just call it a cookbook. It's a cookbook and also a, a collection of essays. It's called Panama's All American. Uh, it's based on all of the people and recipes that she encountered on Taste the Nation. Uh, and the books shares all kinds of home recipes from many families, third culture, families, um, across, um, as is implicated in the title the Nation. And when we were thinking about what we could talk to Padma about, um, we were just circling this idea of. Taste, not just in the culinary sense, but of course she has a lot to say about that. Uh, but just a person of Padma is of exquisite taste in everything that she does. And so we wanted to talk to her as critics, people who on some level our life, our, our livelihoods are taste. Um, we wanted to talk to her about being a person of discerning taste in all the many prongs of her life and career. Why do you guys think taste matters so much right now? What is the, I don't know, it just feels like such a grounding force for me. What's the deal about taste today? Alex Schwartz: Well, because I think taste is, it gives these two connecting points between your individuality and thena bigger collective that you're part of. You know, your taste defines you, what you love to watch, the way you wanna dress, what you like to eat. These things come to us from external sources and then we take them and we make them our own. And when we find people who click with us who is like, maybe you all like the same podcast for some reason. Maybe you're in a room of people and you look around and you realize that you all enjoy listening to the same show every Thursday or whatever it might be, you feel plugged into something bigger. And I really think that we all feel very atomized right now. And that kind of double edged thing about taste where it can distinguish you but it can also connect you. I think it, that's what got us excited because that's what we love doing on the show. Naomi Fry: Yeah, think to, I mean, we just, just a couple days ago, a new episode of our podcast came out and it was about ai. And I think one of the things that we were discussing and thinking about, and I think it's something that's bothering a lot of people right now is, is thinking about how the concept of taste and what makes good art and good life is, is under attack right now. And it,makes sense to try and figure out and retain what's good and about, you know, everything around us to kind of, separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, you know, the, the, the gems from the slop and so, I just think everything we see around us is kind of a call to arms to think about what, why taste matters. Vinson Cunningham: beautifully said. We're gonna talk about. All of that and more. right now with, without further ado, join me in welcoming our guest, the incredibly talented host, writer, producer, Padma LaMi. Padma Lakshmi: Thank you so much. Vinson Cunningham: let's kind of just start by jumping straight into the deep end. We'll sort of wade our way out. What do you think Padma? It means to have good taste. Padma Lakshmi: I think. It means to know good from bad, pleasurable, um, versus punishing in some cases to your palate, to your eyes, to your sense of propriety, you know, in many cases. And it's very subjective, but I also think in certain cases it's like what that judge says about porn. It's hard to explain, but everyone knows when they see it, you know? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: It is true. It's something that's hard to define certainly. But I'm wondering if over the course of your life, I mean this is kind of a big question, but like your journey through life. I mean, can you think, when you stop and think about it, the development of your own taste, like, do you remember how it started? Padma Lakshmi: I think my grandmother was really good at helping me develop my palette. And when I was young, I always was excited about trying all these things that you wouldn't normally give to children. You know, very spicy foods, pickles, chilies, all these things. and for me, my sense of taste is very attached to my physical senses, first and foremost. And so I think that's, those are my earliest memories. And also, you know, in India when women wear saris there's a hunt for that perfect blouse to match. we all get our sorry, blouses tailored. And so I spent a lot of time sifting through a lot of fabrics with various aunts and being dragged to these beautiful textile stores. There's a beautiful store in Chennai called Nly, and you go there and it's got reams and you know, just like bolts and bolts and bolts from floor to ceiling, room after room, floor after floor of these beautiful colors, these saturated silks and cottons. And I think just being able to see color and differentiating nuances, subtle nuances. in the color blue and how there are millions of shades of blue. And in my way, in a very rudimentary way, I, I learned, you know, sort of the hem of my grandmother, sorry, so to speak. Vinson Cunningham: You’ve spoken a lot about, Coming to this country at the age of four years old and also you're a, I think of you as a great New Yorker, someone who loves this city precisely because of that sort of excess of, things to see and taste and touch. Um, do you remember your first impressions of New York and whether that contributed to this thing that we're talking about? Like how do you developed what mattered to you? I Padma Lakshmi: Um, I remember. Arriving at JFK I came as an unaccompanied minor. My mother was there and she had this crocheted blanket over her arm. I think she was afraid I was going to be cold. I came at this time of year, I came on Halloween night. I arrived and. I remember going home and my mom had a big plate of candies and I thought they were for me to welcome me. And then the doorbell kept ringing and these very garishly dressed children. Um, you know, but all these, you know, people kept coming and they kept opening their bags and my mother kept emptying that plate of candy into their bags and I thought, you know, wow. America this magical land where all you have to do is put some weird clothes on and people give you candy. Um, Vinson Cunningham: Too true. Too true. Padma Lakshmi: and so she explained the holiday of Halloween, and it still remains my favorite holiday because I feel like it's the day, you know, speaking of taste, where you don't actually have to exercise your taste and you can be as monstrous or garish or, you know, if you're a teenage girl, slutty, um, as you want, nobody says anything. And I think that freedom of expression, even as a 4-year-old, made an impression on me Vinson Cunningham: interestingly though, this Halloween thing it kind of makes me curious about obviously an, an early part of your development, as a public person, which is being a model. It seems a lot like this sort of putting forward, whether it be clothes or other things, and, and the point of it being other people sort of apprehending you and projecting their tastes onto you. I imagine that that also was an education in aesthetics and taste as well. Padma Lakshmi: It was, uh, also an, uh, education and torture because as a model you have no power. Um, you know, you're just a mannequin and you're there to sell the clothes. It's a business. Um, and, and there are these flashes of, of wonder and joy where you shoot with a great photographer or a wonderful editor who's really. Very imaginative, and you do extraordinary work, but mostly it's just doing what people tell you standing where they tell you and faking like, you feel sexy when you're really just itchy, you know, or cold or too hot. Um, But it was, it is a challenge and it taught me a lot. I mean, modeling also afforded me the ability to travel as a young person in a way that I would've never had the resources to do. Alex Schwartz: Will you tell us a little bit more about what travel brought to you? Because I think it's an interesting question in general, and clearly it's had so much influence on how you see the world and yourself in the world. And also when we do talk about taste, I think sometimes there's this idea that it's a very fixed thing and instead, I really think it's much more of like an educational experience because you have to encounter new things to know what you like, what you don't like to, to have a broader view of, of life and the world. Padma Lakshmi: The more you live and the more you travel and the more you educate yourself and learn, the more expansive your taste becomes, your sense of taste. But also, hopefully the better it becomes. You know? I mean, I think the best thing that happened to me was all that travel. And because I was an immigrant in this country, I was always straddling two different cultures, two different points of view. and traveling afforded me that it first of all, gave me an education. I mean, I had a good education in spices because of where I come from in South India and my own food culture. But then it was really after college when I had the chance to travel through Europe where I learned about European cooking technique. And before then I was never, I could never afford to go to those restaurants. Little did I know they even existed. I didn't know what an amuse bouch was or a tasting menu. now 13 year olds. You know, talk to me about it as I'm hailing a cab, and I think that's because of Top Chef, but, um, I think travel is the single most important thing you can do as a young person, however far you can get, in whatever way you can go before you have a really serious job or a family that you know, ties you to one place. You know, I lived in Italy for six years. I also lived in France. for two of those years. I sort of went back and forth between Milan and Paris. And so I think it really opened my eyes and I didn't grow up like that. You know, my mother's a nurse, my stepfather's a plumber. And when I first got to Paris, I had no money and I was doing very low rung modeling. But my theater professor was on sabbatical in Paris with his family, and I had worked as a work study student with his wife who was head of the costume department. I was a theater major. And so they just took pity on me. And I moved out of the models apartment, which was five girls to two rooms onto their couch, which was a vast step up. Um, And, and Michael, my old professor, loved to cook. Through Michael. I learned a lot about French food and French culture so little by little I just hoarded all the information I could get because I was interested in it. I didn't even know what lay ahead of me. Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Hmm. Vinson Cunningham: We have a question from the audience, What's the difference? This is, I've never thought about this in this way. What's the difference between someone with taste and someone who's picky? Alex Schwartz: oh man, that's a great Vinson Cunningham: like it pickiness, I think about food, but other, you know, what's the difference? Padma Lakshmi: uh, Alex Schwartz: the Padma Lakshmi: the difference is a person who has taste has it because they're willing to try many things. And a person who's picky has no taste because they don't wanna try anything. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I think that's right. because pickiness is much more about what you do not like and you do not like most Vinson Cunningham: And will not Naomi Fry: And Alex Schwartz: know, I don't think that my toddler has taste. Vinson Cunningham: I Alex Schwartz: Don't think that toast for dinner is Naomi Fry: Right. Vinson Cunningham: your son. And, um, you know, I beg to differ, but continue. Naomi Fry: it gives, it gives itself to blandness. When you have a picky child, it's not because he only likes to eat like the most, exquisite kind of spite, you know, he wants Alex Schwartz: to, I mean, I'm sure in New York there is like a caviar child Naomi Fry: I mean, that's also annoying. Alex Schwartz: and it's like caviar again. Vinson Cunningham: be featured in next week's episode, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Vinson Cunningham: Stick around for more of our conversation with Padma Lakshmi live at the New Yorker Festival. That's right after the break. :: MIDROLL :: Vinson Cunningham: we are all critics, which means that we often exercise our taste and sometimes our judgments in public. And you have done this on Top Chef and you're gonna do it again in America's culinary Cup. is there like a philosophy that you have of how to, render judgments of other people's work in public? Naomi Fry: Right. Because for us, we do it and Vinson Cunningham: and then people just hate us and it's fine. fine. Alex Schwartz: You mean like you're not looking someone in Naomi Fry: eye, but we're not looking someone in the eye when we're Alex Schwartz: lot of people in the eye. Yeah, Naomi Fry: exactly. Which is very, which is very different. And I would imagine, yeah. Like Vincent says, it's like how, was it also a learning curve for you, you know, from beginning to be that and then over the course of, you know, 19 seasons, Padma Lakshmi: No, I mean, I'm a pretty opinionated bitch at the best of times. So like, you know, I'm not short of opinions on anything. I try to keep them to myself un unless I am actually an expert or someone asks. and I also had a lot of, I had a lot of evidence, about what not to do based on the people who were sitting next to me at times. Um, can you Alex Schwartz: say more about that? Vinson Cunningham: Say more about that. Padma Lakshmi: it's not so much what you say, but how you say it. And I, I think it's very important to look someone in the eye when you're critiquing them because it shows that you stand by your opinion and it's very easy to answer your question. The way that I always approach my work, on Top Chef and now on America's Culinary Cup is I'm interested in giving you information that's useful. I'm not interested in berating you or attacking you personally. I assume that you are as serious about your work as I am about your work. I always try to be constructive in my criticism. I don't, I don't ever say, I don't like this. If you watch me on that show, I say, what could make it better? What I don't think worked, why I don't think it worked and what it felt like to eat it. Because unlike, other competition shows that have to do with craft, whether it's. race or any, you know, American Idol, the voice, or even Project Runway. You can see the clothes, you can see the models, walk on the clothes. You can see them dance, you can hear them sing. But on Top Chef, you're really relying on us to give you a vicarious experience to describe what we are eating, what the mouth feel is like. Is it spicy enough? Is it balanced? Is it greasy? Does it make you wanna take another bite? Does it remind you of your grandma's rugal love? Whatever it is, you know? and so I see my job as helping. I see my job as the person in the kitchen that you would say, does this need a little salt? And you want constructive criticism. If you are a good friend, you tell that person the truth in a kind way that will help them. You know, I want my friends to tell me, what they really think because I want them to make me better because I want to be better. And I assume that you want to be better too. Alex Schwartz: That is exactly what I'm going to tell anybody who is pissed about a bad review that I've written. Vinson Cunningham: I want you, you to be better. Alex Schwartz: to be better. I do really relate to that though. I think that, I think that very often, you know, it's an interesting question about negative criticism. I'm sure we've all gotten it. Um, because of course there is criticism that is done from spite or from jealousy and all kinds of negatively motivated things, but I think that really is the root of good negative criticism. It's, I want this to be better. It, and it could be. Um, and in some ways it's an affront that it's not. Maybe. Padma Lakshmi: Yeah. I mean, I also think, you know, like you, you do it in the written word or on your podcast, I do it on television. There is an element of entertainment to that, you know, so there's a, there is a way to deliver that information that's also witty and entertaining, you know, funny or area diet or illuminating what, what have you. But it has to be true. In order for that to work. Naomi Fry: so we're talking about judgment on a show like Top Chef on your new show that's coming up. But then of course you have Taste the Nation and your new cookbook, which is a different kind of project, right? Where you go and you explore and you talk to people and you taste perhaps with a different, it's not that your taste changes, but your intention, you know, and your transmission of what you wanna say is, is different. How is that for you transitioning from this mode of judgment or critique to this other mode of maybe exploration or investigation and more of a sharing? Padma Lakshmi: It's great. Um, I mean, there's more of me in Taste Nation than any other project I've done, and that was the first time that I got to make all the decisions and really make all of the editorial choices. So if you are, you know, it's only a 30 minute show, so if you are seeing it, it means, I think it's worthy of being featured. Um, I have so many great field producers who worked with me on that show and. We all took a really serious proprietorship of over that show because the mission of that show was really important. And the mission of the book goes deeper than we had time for in the show. But it is very much the same. It's sort of the last seven years of my life in food and, it's five years, traveling all over America for eight months a year you know, road by road, city by city and really finding what I thought was important to bring to a larger audience. people in those communities, of course there was, knew about them. It, you know, it wasn't some big discovery, but it was just a way to build community, between Americans in a positive way. And everybody likes to talk about food. So it's also a, a gentle way in to talk about some more serious things. And, you know, the title is a play obviously on Face the Nation. And it's really a cultural, anthropological political show masquerading as a food show. It's not a lifestyle show, right? You're not gonna learn where the coolest, trendy places that there's a line down the block. You're gonna learn about some abuelita who's making Amazonian tamales that many Peruvians don’t know about but should. Alex Schwartz: you know, one thing that really strikes me about Taste the Nation is how, um, you're going to all these different cultural communities, and what you see again and again is how much pride is wound up in this question of taste. And I wonder if, you know. You could talk a little bit about what you saw with that because it just, people get their taste in many cases by inheritance, and then they expand it. They expand it because in a place like America taste collides, you know, in, in big cities you start eating foods. You know, you say in the introduction to your cookbook that Goji Chang and all these other foods, you know, are just part of the American pantry these days in a way that they certainly weren't when I was young. Um, but this, this idea of pride and taste I just found in your work to be really intertwined. So I'm just curious to, to hear about that, if that struck you as well when you were traveling around. Padma Lakshmi: I think people. We're really interested in sharing their culture through their food. And everybody will talk to you about, you know, there's their mother's casserole or their auntie's, you know, barbecue or whatever it is, and everybody has that recipe or that dish that's so important to them from childhood that they love. there's also biological reasons to that, you know, where your sense of taste, well your sense of smell, your olfactory sense is a lot of your sense of taste. and where that is housed in your brain. is are very, very close to where emotional memory is also stored. Which is why when you have something from your childhood, you know, it's that Proustian Madeline thing, right? Where you're transported immediately. And I think people want to share that because there's, there's so much emotion and history and personal narrative in that one little cookie or chicken leg or you know, tamale whatever. And I think it was very important to us to have people tell us their own stories and really tell us who they were. Rather than me tell the audience, but I, I, I think what I wanted to do is show how beautiful and how delicious the diversity of American food and American culture is. And I just wanted to do it in a positive way, which wasn't wagging one's finger at others, but saying, actually the thing that you're afraid of is the thing that's the most beautiful about our country. Naomi Fry: I think it's really about specificity. I think that would, that's what kind of tells the show apart because it's all of these. Topics can seem quite abstract, right? It's like this great nation is made up of many Padma Lakshmi: Yeah. It becomes kind Naomi Fry: cetera, et cetera. But then you actually, you're meeting with people. It's about humanism and it's about specificity. and that's where the food comes in as well, because what is more specific than the taste of a particular spice or herb that kind of like can stand in for a culture. Vinson Cunningham: Padma is really good at hosting and producing, but recently she started performing in an entirely new medium comedy. That's after another break on critics at large from the New Yorker. :: MIDROLL :: Vinson Cunningham: anyway, pad LaMi. You are increasingly as reported in our magazine by our illustrious colleague Helen Rosner, a budding comedian, Padma Lakshmi: Very budding emphasis on the bud and budding Vinson Cunningham: budding, And I, I would, I would love to hear from you, whether as a public figure, engaging in a new art form, whether that has given you yet another opportunity to reflect on. Your own taste and whether that journey is taking you somewhere else with this new endeavor Padma Lakshmi: Absolutely. all, it's terrifying because when you are well known, you don't get to fail in private, you know? So that sucks. But on the other hand, I have very little to lose, you know, so I mean, I say things in my standup that I would never say in a interview in the New Yorker or even on my social media, but, you know, in that agreement that you have with the audience in a comedy space, or at least that you're supposed to have, um. It's miraculous, it's freeing, it's exhilarating and terrifying. it allowed me to say things and think about things in a, from a new angle. And I'm still, as I say, learning. Um, and it, it's fun. I mean, I, it turns out my taste and comedy is really crass and really dirty. What are some of Naomi Fry: What are some of your favorites? Like, Padma Lakshmi: I mean, I like really old, old, uh, Richard Pryor stuff. Like you can watch, you can find it on YouTube. it's like way before any of the comedy specials and it's strange. And you can actually see him thinking of the joke and where to go in the moment. And I do think there's something about being off the cuff, but there's also something about being incredibly prepared. I think what I like in comedy is the same thing that I liked about the runway. It is a very immediate, visceral. Give and take between you and the audience, and you can feel what's working and what's not. I mean, I, you know, I've literally, I can count on my fingers on probably one hand almost the amount of times I've done standup. But I, I, you know, I, I take offense to the New Yorker outing me. In an almost 7,000 word article that the headline was, you know, ALNI walks into a bar, which, you know, is kind of genius on Helen's part. you know, she, I didn't invite her to the Bellhouse by the way. I didn't, she found out that I was doing it somehow on Instagram or something. And then she asked my office for a ticket and we were all like, oh shit, what do we, we can't tell her. No. It's like, it's a New Yorker. Like, we don't want her to write a bad piece. So we had to give her a a ticket and she came And, um, this, this interview process, you know, being profiled in the New Yorker is like colonoscopy by interview, like. It took a year, Vinson Cunningham: but a beautiful colonoscopy. I'll have, you know, now. Alex Schwartz: And I might say, you can eat before Yes. Padma Lakshmi: yes. A year to do this thing. And I, I lived a year in terror and at no moment in that year did I ever think that little comedy shows off to the side. And little tiny clubs, But a comic needs to perform. You need, you know, it's like a player needs to play, um, right. Naomi Fry: You're supposed to do open mics every night, right. Or I Padma Lakshmi: open mics. Yeah. Okay. Here's why I hate open mics, because I'm not like. Person off the street trying her hand at comedy or you know, a writer trying to work out new material. I'm that lady from Top Chef who thinks she's funny now. And so I get up there and people are like, what? And they get confused and then I sort of explain it and that takes two of my six minutes away from me. And then it's not funny anymore 'cause I've lost the energy it's mortifying, but I sort of like that about it. Alex Schwartz: Well, I guess if you don't expose yourself ruthlessly to the judgment of the public, how will you grow exactly. As a person? Padma Lakshmi: I wanna be better. Naomi Fry: wanna be better. Vinson Cunningham: do you have advice for people who want to cultivate their sense of taste? Padma Lakshmi: Yes. I mean, I mentor a few young women. I remember this woman. Who was just out of college, And you know, she sort of bounded up to me and she said, I wanna do exactly what you do. And I just got outta college and I have a blog and I'm a critic too, and I'm taking hosting lessons. And I said, well, first of all, quit those right away and save your money. Naomi Fry: Hosting lessons. Padma Lakshmi: I don't know. It's, she lives in Hollywood. I don't know what to tell you, but, um, Alex Schwartz: what is that? Padma Lakshmi: they have lessons for every insecurity you have in, in Los Angeles. Vinson Cunningham: Toastmasters, but for, Padma Lakshmi: yeah, you can pay someone to teach you how not to be afraid or But the thing I told her to do in a nutshell was to develop her palate by eating, by traveling, by exposure and proximity to the thing that you want to learn. I didn't even know there was a whole world of fine dining because I'd never been exposed to it. I mean, my family and I went out to eat twice a month, you know, once for pizza and once for either Chinese or Thai. Other than that, it was dollar and rice every single day. That was all we ate, and that's pretty much, you know how it is still today in my mom's house. Vinson Cunningham: That was baked chicken for me. Yeah, Baked chicken and chicken livers. Big thing in my, Naomi Fry: That sounds good. It was Vinson Cunningham: She was pretty good. She was, was pretty good. Um, Okay. Is there one thing that you're listening to, watching anything right now that exemplifies your taste Padma Lakshmi: that's a loaded question. Alex Schwartz: think Vinson Cunningham: me it is the album Baby by Dijon. If you haven't heard this album, it's the best. Go get it. What about you? Padma Lakshmi: I've been filming, so I like, I've been in a vortex of filming, so I've had a lot of really great food, um, that I can't talk about. But Um, I just saw Frankenstein, everybody go out and see Frankenstein. It is a masterpiece. the costumes and the art direction and the script, it's beautiful. And Mia Goth and Jacob Ardi and Oscar Isaacs are great in it. But you know what I love about it is that even though Mia Goth has a supporting role. All of her lines are the best lines. And she's not just like, you know, sort of the woman going, eek, watch out honey. You know, and she's got these gorgeous, gorgeous costumes made by Kate Hawley. And it's just a masterclass in filmmaking Alex Schwartz: Here's to that. Vinson Cunningham: Amazing, thank you. Vinson Cunningham: Um, here's another great question from the audience, and maybe we can, we can all take a, take a stab at this one. This is, this is really good. We talked about ai, on a recent episode. Um, I tried not to get too mad about it and I, I failed. Um, but this is an angle that we hadn't considered on the subject of taste. the audience member says, I'm regularly fed some of the most abhorrent AI slop on Instagram reels and TikTok that you could possibly imagine. I've gotten to the point where I actually am starting to consider it transgressive art. I find this is whoever you are, a poet, whoever you're, I find beauty in just how vapid and stimulating it is. is it possible to have good enough taste, assuming other than my fixation on this AI slop I have. Okay. Taste that you can justify anything as tasteful, or, and this is maybe to the point, am I losing my mind? Would anybody like to take a stab at it? I don't think you're losing your mind. I just think, maybe take a, take a step away from TikTok for a second is my thing. Alex Schwartz: you are, but it's okay. So are we all, we're really all in the same boat. Yeah. So you're talking about like the Overton window of taste. Basically. There are something that seemed totally unacceptable and you wouldn't go near, it becomes through exposure increasingly. Okay. I mean, I get what you're saying about the AI slop. I think that actually is a very common experience of it. in preparation for our episode, we didn't even talk about this. I watched a whole, like ai, you know, generated comedy, series of comedy clips. That is Padma Lakshmi: is it funny? Alex Schwartz: Uh, it didn't do anything for me, but I think it's very in this zone of, um, Naomi Fry: was an Vinson Cunningham: monstrosity, couldn't do. Alex Schwartz: Mons. Yeah. Vincent, I'm, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the new, and Vincent is trying to keep me, you know, on the path of truth and righteousness. Vinson Cunningham: I only want the best for you, Alex Schwartz: which thank you. Which I appreciate. I guess the question is, where does it lead you? You don't know yet. So see, so you know, proceed. Proceed. What are we supposed to do? We're supposed to stand up here and shake our finger and say like, no, you know, go look at a tree. Like, you should do that anyway, but see where it leads you. See where it leads you and, and how it does change you in your taste. That's what I would say. and see how it interacts with the things you know, you love. And definitely limit your time on the algorithm. You have to, Naomi Fry: I mean, I think it's transgressive in the same way we can say that Trump is transgressive, you know what I mean? Like when something is so, abhorrent that it, it's certainly interesting, you know, it's certainly like, makes you look. Padma Lakshmi: It's fascinating. Naomi Fry: fascinating. It's fascinating and it's fascinating. Like a car crash, crash and, um, you Padma Lakshmi: we are in the car, right? right? Naomi Fry: It's, it's like it's rubbernecking, you know? It's, I understand that impulse and there's something about the vulgarity of it That tickles one's fancy, I guess, but I don't know that it, I can say that it's actually good. Like it's something else. We Alex Schwartz: see the lop. That's it. You, we have to see the lop and look at the lop and evaluate the lop because maybe the LOP is beautiful. maybe, you know, some bizarre generation. You, you see something bizarre and weird. Vinson Cunningham: Vinson Cunningham: And this experience has been amazing. That is all we have time for. Thank you Padma, for this wonderful conversation. And course, thank you all for being with Naomi Fry: Thank you. Vinson Cunningham: you so much. Um, thank you for your support of this festival and for our magazine. It matters. Thank you so much from all of us at the New Yorker. We hope you have a wonderful night. Thank you. Good night. This has been critics at Large Live and in person. This week's episode was produced by Michelle O'Brien. Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Conde Nast, head of Global Audio, who was in the front row at this show, by the way, is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadra composed our theme music And we had engineering help today from James Yost with Mixing by Mike Kuman. You can find every episode of Critics at Large at New yorker.com/critics.