Vinson Cunningham: Shane aur. Ilia. Who's your guy? 
Alex Schwartz: Who are you? King Solomon. I'm not, I'm not splitting my babies. 
Naomi Fry: Oh, come on. You 
Vinson Cunningham: have no proclivities toward one or the other. 
Alex Schwartz: They're a beautiful unit. 
Naomi Fry: I have a clear preference. 
Alex Schwartz: Oh, hoo hoo. I mean, and we all know. I mean, we all know for who 
Naomi Fry: mean. I mean, come on, 
Alex Schwartz: you're an IA girl.
Naomi Fry: Of course. 
Alex Schwartz: Of course. 
Naomi Fry: Obviously he's a bit of a bad boy. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I mean, of course. Let's just say, of course, 
Naomi Fry: Vincent, although you are. As straight as the day is long. 
Vinson Cunningham: I can look at the beauty of souls, you know? 
Naomi Fry: Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. And appreciate 
Vinson Cunningham: and 
Naomi Fry: appreciate the aesthetic of, of a, of a fine you torso the 
Vinson Cunningham: Michelangelos David esque perfection of these men.
I, I'm there, but I like, you know who I like. 
Naomi Fry: Okay. 
Vinson Cunningham: Another fellow named Scott Hunter. 
Naomi Fry: You know what? Scott Hunter, 
Vinson Cunningham: he's my guy. 
Alex Schwartz: All the straight men love Scott Hunter. 
Naomi Fry: He's just like a classic, like sort of doofy jock. 
Vinson Cunningham: And he is got more courage than anybody in the whole show. Yeah, 
Alex Schwartz: I just want someone to look into the straight men, you know, who are, who are uniting behind.
Scott Hunter, 
Vinson Cunningham: Scott Hive.
        MUX
Alex Schwartz: This is Critics At Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz. 
Naomi Fry: I'm Nomi Fry. 
Vinson Cunningham: I'm Vincent Cunningham. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Today, critics at large finally joins. I don't know, the rest of American and Canadian North American culture, let's say.
In talking about the very interesting heated rivalry, 
Alex Schwartz: we made it. 
Naomi Fry: We have been edging for weeks. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Edging listeners who in our Spotify comments, emails have been asking everywhere. 
Alex Schwartz: Everywhere. Dms. Dms, the dms. I've received multiple dms begging. Begging, actually just very normal people being like, are you guys gonna discuss this show?
But I will say, before we were asked, I was like, what is this? What's happening? Maybe I'll take a, a look. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: And look, I did. 
Vinson Cunningham: And, 
Alex Schwartz: and how, and it's quite literally impossible to, 
Vinson Cunningham: and if you happen to be even later than us, like the true last person on the face of the earth who doesn't know what heated rivalry is, it tells the story of two men.
How many stories start that way? 
Vinson Cunningham: Two Men, Cain and Abel, I mean Two Men is a real great setup, rival hockey players who fall for each other over a series of extremely. Sexy, private, clandestine encounters and at some point in the last, I dunno, month or so, it stopped just being a TV show and became a full blown cultural supernova phenomenon.
CLIP MONTAGE: Canadian, what's it about? Hockey, romance, drama. These guys are absolutely on a roll. After the Olympics revealing, just last week, the series stars, Hudson Williams and Connor's story would be carrying the torch as part of the official relay. // And it's getting an extraordinary amount of attention, in part because of its steamy seed,  completely taken over the internet, social media's latest obsession.
Alex Schwartz: guys, I wish that I didn't have my Instagram blocker on right now, so I could show you my for you page. Oh my God. Because let me tell you, here's what looks like. Here's what it looked like last night. Block after block after block of heated rivalry content, Connor Story and Hudson Williams content, and then lonely in the middle. How to know that your child is self-regulating. Well, 
Alex Schwartz: it's like, I'm sorry, the mom tent has gotten pushed aside. It's just like a lonely thing, being like, are you still a mother? Are you still interested in learning how to raise your child from Instagram? No, absolutely. I'm not interested in that anymore.
Absolutely not. I'm over that. He's gonna have to raise himself because my entire. Feed is just heated rivalry. 
Vinson Cunningham: There you go. So today we're weighing in on why, why this tiny Canadian production is hitting so hard. We're also, importantly, I think, gonna be talking about the upcoming film Pillion, another love story about two men, albeit very different and about the long lineage of stories about gay love.
One theme that connects a lot of these stories is the sometimes unbridgeable divide between. Private love on one hand and public life on the other. The threshold between these two is known, of course, as the closet. Obviously a very difficult place to be in in real life, and yet in these stories it just works.
It winds up being kind of sexy. So my question at least is what is the closet still doing, at least for art
that's today on critics of large heated rivalry and the long drama of the closet. and why we yearn to yearn.
________________


Okay, let's dive right in. Heated rivalry came out round about Thanksgiving. It really is a family show when you think about it. A Thanksgiving 
Naomi Fry: let's all gather around with our families. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. 
Naomi Fry: One pillar is the Turkey. The other 
Vinson Cunningham: God 
Naomi Fry: knows two men going at it, uh, like gangbusters 
Vinson Cunningham: made by showrunner. Jacob Tierney for the Canadian network crave on a shoestring budget.
And in the eight weeks or so since it's become the biggest thing. I mean, un un qualifiably the biggest thing. Yeah. On tv. Now, one way I read that, you know, most of the people who've watched the show have rewatched, at least one, and maybe all of the episodes it's like, not just a ones through, but a what are some of the other things you're seeing about this mania?
Naomi Fry: Yeah, I mean, I don't, I, I can't recall when the last time was that I. Saw something like this hid the culture with such a force. 
Alex Schwartz: It's, you know, a friend said this to me and I think this is absolutely right. It's, it's like the virus from, um, pluribus, another show we discussed. Like that is what the feeling was. Like.
I guys, I went into this being like, I think we should talk about the gay hockey show on the podcast. What's it called again? And that was before then some kind of light flash upon me and now all I can think about or, or, or consume is content related to the show. The characters, the actual, I mean, I think a big part of it as well is the amazing personas of the actors who have gone from obscurity to fame in like, yeah.
The only pure way I've seen in a very long time happen in the culture. the press cycle and the nature of these very, they're very funny. They're enormously charismatic. I think that experience has happened in parallel to the show, the kind of discovery of these two characters who people love, and then the discovery of the love for the actual men who play them.
It's compounding. It's going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, and to me, this is the like social media algorithm has. Ex has somehow like colluded with and, um, exploded traditional media in a way I've never totally seen before. Mm-hmm. That like, this is a traditional TV show. It has six episodes.
It's on, you view it on television, but social media has kept the fire burning and has fan the flames and led to this like un inescapable experience. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Even the commissioner of the NHL is saying, I have binged all the heated rivalries, and it's like, 
Alex Schwartz: which is crazy. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: In a night he said. In, 
Vinson Cunningham: in a night.
Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: What the, the, the fact of this for hockey, I mean, suddenly I feel like the NHL is just doing a little head swivel, like people would, guys, I'm going to a hockey game this Thursday. You 
Vinson Cunningham: are not awesome rangers. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. 
Vinson Cunningham: Oh my God. It's the best live sport. 
Alex Schwartz: Well, I'm going with three straight women who are bewitched by this thing.
that's 
Vinson Cunningham: hilarious. 
Alex Schwartz: Here we go. This is crazy. Crazy. 
Vinson Cunningham: Well, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the show itself. Oh yes. I mean, we can, it's easily synopsized.
Um, we see two great young hockey phenoms in the summer before. They're both drafted into the, uh, professional hockey league that is supposed to, you know, it's obviously the NHL, they don't call it that. Um, one is from Canada, the other is from Russia, and 
Naomi Fry: Shane and Ilia 
Vinson Cunningham: Shane. And Ilya Shane plays for the, uh, Montreal Metros.
He is the Canadian one. He played, he's a hometown, hometown kid in Canada. Ilya plays for the Boston Raiders and is kind of like the tougher meaner of the two, um, through a series of encounters and, and it like, fits around the schedule of their games, right? It's like when they're in the same town, they start to hook up and, um, you know, spoiler alert.
They kind of end up growing closer and closer and closer. What else? What did, do you guys like the show? 
Naomi Fry: Alex 
is 
Alex Schwartz: like, I mean, let 
Naomi Fry: me count the waves. 
Alex Schwartz: I can, well, I can only say what Mr. Darcy says to, um, you know, Lizzie Bennett, like, you've bewitched me body and soul. What the hell has happened? I feel like I've been possessed by this show, and that is fascinating to me.
Well, like just analytically looking at the experience of possession. What has happened? The last thing I remember, like this was for was Ferrante fever and Oh, interesting. You know, that's 
Naomi Fry: really interesting. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. And like where 
Naomi Fry: another folia do, 
Alex Schwartz: I know exactly. You know, but where you wanted to dissect it with people, where you wanted to talk about, with people where you wanted to live in the world.
It's, it's, I do feel that it is parasitically warmed its way into my brain and, and I can like on the rewatch guys. Believe me, I can laugh like I'm laughing when I see Kip, the barista in the bottle, episode three show up with a hockey player's body, even though we know he's applying to get a PhD in art history.
I'm laughing. Yeah, I'm laughing when I see Kip with a book that says art history on it. Even though he is applying to a PhD in art history, like he seems to be just discovering the subject guys. I'm embracing all of it. I'm embracing it. I, I wanna hear what you guys think, obviously, and I have lots of thoughts and theories, but please, 
Naomi Fry: Alex, it's interesting that you brought up Ferrante Fever, um, because I think, and I, and I agree.
I mean, I, I recall also throwing myself into the Neopolitan, um. Not Trilogy. 
Alex Schwartz: Quartet. 
Naomi Fry: Quartet. Yes. The Neapolitan Quartet at the time. The more sophisticated 
Vinson Cunningham: grouping sounds 
Naomi Fry: like. Yes. Yes. 
Vinson Cunningham: Sounds like there's a cello involved. Yeah. 
Naomi Fry: Quartet. It's a, it's a quartet. 
Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. 
Naomi Fry: Um, to me there's something very teenage about it, and I'm not saying it as in a bad way.
I'm saying it in a good way, in the sense that. When you're a teenager, you're discovering things for the first time, whether it's kind of sex or it's, you know, the mysteries of friendship or, you know, just you're, you're experiencing the world fresh. And there is something about the depiction of these two characters because it's the, the meeting between them is something very new to both of them.
Mm-hmm. The way they fit together. Let's, let's, let's say, I think for the viewer. It's about the firstness. It's about the firstness of these encounters and the, the yearning that that firstness and freshness arises in you when you're experiencing them, when you're, uh, when the characters are experiencing them, and when you're encountering as a viewer or a reader.
Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it, I, what you said about it being teenager is so spot on because even there's this weird. Um, maybe paradox at the heart of the show, which is that it is incredibly adult in terms of it's like got the longest and most involved sex scenes and like, you know, um, 
Naomi Fry: yeah, we should definitely talk about that 
Vinson Cunningham: as well.
It's, yeah, it's one of the, the characteristics of the show is, you know, it's very graphic and it talks, um, very much about, um. Kinds and ways of of sex. So there's an early scene, I think in IA and Shane's, uh, perhaps second encounter together where, you know, Ilias asking him, has he ever bottomed, has he ever  Had anal sex? And he is like, you know, and it's a very, it's a very. Tender, at least for Ilya Sea. He is like asking him if he's okay and he is doing it, and you know, and, but then, you know, it's like five minutes of it, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and this, this is, this recurs over and over, um, attention to like positions and, uh, and so there's that on the one hand.
The way that the, in, in many ways, the plot, the coming of age happens, you know, often the complaint about sex scenes is that they're extraneous to plot. It seems to me that these sex scenes are very plotty. That they are really the, they contain the engine of the story and therefore it's very adult. But on the other hand, it does.
Feel like ya to me. Totally. 
Naomi Fry: Yes. 
Vinson Cunningham: In like almost all of its particulars. 
Naomi Fry: Yeah. 
Vinson Cunningham: Um, and so like this push and pull between it like feeling like a very like juvenile thing that sometimes, you know, the, the lines, you know, often were like, you know, there are a lot of groans, at least for me, like, in terms of like the things these people are saying, you know?
Alex Schwartz: Can you give an example? 
Vinson Cunningham: Well, um. The, the, the episode that I like, which is nobody really talks about, people talk about they don't like the beginning. They really like the end. My favorite episode is episode three, where this other guy, Scott Hunter, comes in and 
Naomi Fry: your favorite 
Vinson Cunningham: and, and it, we come to know that like everybody that's good, like the best hockey players are all gay.
It's like, oh, this guy too, you know, we've seen him before, but he is off to the side and now he's coming into this smoothie place to get, you know, to get smoothies. And he keeps, you know, his way of flirting is like to keep saying the name of the. Smoothie Barista. I don't even know. He's like kipp. Hey, uh, 
CLIP: Heated Rivalry 
Vinson Cunningham: and then whatever. He has a great game. He comes back the next morning, he says, you know when I have a good game, I like to. Repeat whatever, you know, whatever happened and perfect my routine. So I'm back here, you know, for your 
Naomi Fry: banana.
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, extra banana, you know, so there's a lot of shit like that. And then he leaves and then the fellow barista of Kip goes like, girl, like, it's like this whole thing of like he's, you know, he is far with you guys. It's like, it's funny, but it's like definitely something that like it, it just feels very teenage in its texture.
I don't know. It feels like if Harry Potter was about fucking, it would sound like this, 
Naomi Fry: I think. I think that's really like I, I think. Reading ya for me. And I was in my, in my youth, I mean I really wanted there to be like fucking, you know? Of course. And usually there wasn't, I mean, you know, Judy Bloom had some, you know, her old, her later, like forever my, my, you know, my favorite, uh, Norma Klein, who not many people remember, had, had some sex.
But I think that was always. The place where it was almost going, the place where it was reaching, but mostly didn't because of like the restraints of the, of the genre. So this is kind of like the, the perfect mm-hmm. You know, what we wanted but couldn't get when we were kids. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I think, I think you guys are touching on something really interesting.
Um, Vincent, I think what you're describing I would say is that there's a kind of sincerity here and a kind of directness that absolutely. Not only risks, but kind of strides into the world of Corniness. Mm-hmm. 
Naomi Fry: Yes. 
Alex Schwartz: Um, in being like openhearted and sincere, I think a big part of it, you know, and I've seen this theory going around most obviously by the popular psychotherapist, Esther Perel.
I don't know if you saw her video on Instagram analyzing this, but I think she makes a good point that's worth repeating, which is something going on in this show is about. A kind of wish fulfillment where all expectation of negative consequence. You, you live with the intensity of the expectation that something bad will happen, but it all gets resolved into something good.
Yes. Never that bad. yes, yes. And I think like, um, there are scenes in this show and here is a little bit of a spoil alert for everyone who hasn't seen it, but a coming out that is a terrifying prospect. That goes really well. It's 
Vinson Cunningham: kind of like the dream, you know? 
Alex Schwartz: Yes another example is Shane has a kind of beard relationship with a hot female actress who when he can't really have sex with her, 'cause he is not physically attracted to her, not only is she like, that's cool.
CLIP: Heated Rivalry
Alex Schwartz: She kind of helps him and embraces him and I think there's something that people are finding very restorative about that fantasy. The fantasy of, of the soft landing. And I do wanna say that I think the sex is a huge part of that in the show.
The sex in this show. The first thing it reminded me of was Sex and Sally Rooney novels, okay? Where two people are having a lot of communication. Difficulty, like, um, they're opposites attracting. They, they can't really talk to each other. They don't, they don't know how to work it out in real life, but their sexual chemistry is off the charts.
I think why a large range of people are attracted to the show, including straight women, is about the fantasy of deeply fulfilling sex that isn't awkward, that isn't weird, that isn't a little bit uncomfortable, that doesn't leave you feeling like. What the hell just happened? I feel used and abused. I feel dirty.
It's the opposite. 
Naomi Fry: Or just like, I'm not that fulfilled. Like this is fine, but this is not 
Vinson Cunningham: mm-hmm. 
Naomi Fry: What, you know, what's all the fuss about? Yeah. They're 
Vinson Cunningham: always like ripping each other's clothes off of 
Naomi Fry: Yeah. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: And, and they, and they're perfectly sexually compatible. So we, yeah. So KIPP and Scott, this is like a theme that comes, I think it's, it's a real fan.
It's, that's a fantasy. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's an important fantasy. Mm-hmm. Um. The show leads with the sex, like within 15 minutes they're having hot, like revelatory sex. And I think, I know a lot of people like don't like the first two episodes and they like the more obviously complex emotional storytelling.
Guys, I loved the first two episodes because right away, you know, the fantasy is there. These guys are getting something that's very important to them. 
Naomi Fry: They're fucking and they're sucking. 
Alex Schwartz: That's correct. Naomi, 
Vinson Cunningham: I think we did it. I think we did. We're gonna take a quick break and when we're back, the long drama of the closet, this is critics at large from the.
:: MIDROLL:: 


Nomi, you if, if listeners don't know this yet, you wrote about heated rivalry for the New Yorker and your piece is called The Delicious Anticipation. And yes, release of Heated rivalry. I can find it on New yorker.com. Um, in that piece, you kind of. Take some time to throw back to several of the great stories of gay romance across various forms of literature.
What was, um, what was coming to mind for you when you were watching? Get it Rivalry. 
Naomi Fry: Yeah, I mean, I, as I was watching the show, I was both struck by what felt like this kind of freshness and, and felt like falling in love for the first time, et cetera, et cetera. But I also thought about how it was part of a lineage of previous texts that have dealt with the problem of the closet, and one such text was the Ian Forester novel, Morris.
That was only published posthumously in, in the early seventies because of course, the conditions, uh, for a text that deals with homosexual love and also happy homosexual love, were not there during, uh, Forrester's lifetime. So I thought about Maurice, which is kind of like similarly, uh, to, to heated rivalry about kind of.
Two lovers coming from very different places. The protagonist is, is an upper class man. The other is, is a working class gamekeeper. And, uh, they are drawn to each other. They have sex. Um, and then there is this mutual suspicion that comes from the great danger that would come to both of them if their union was revealed.
And, uh. Ultimately, there is a realization that there is, despite the fears and dangers of the closet, a love and attraction that transcends it. And so I was thinking about that narrative of the obstacle of the closet, right, and how. Of course this is something that in real life as well as in these actual texts in Maurice and in a different way in Heid rivalry, uh, presents an actual very painful thing to contend with.
But it also allows for a kind of like. Narrative conflict that is difficult, but also because of that difficulty satisfying when it's resolved, which is kind of the conditions of, of an interesting narrative, right? And so I think this is something that happens. In Morris, I also mentioned some other texts in the piece, you know, broke Back Mountain.
Also about two star cross lovers, two men whose love dare not speak its name. We have Patricia Heisman, the Price of Salt, which is about, you know, these like challenge lesbian lovers later made into Todd Hayes's movie Carroll. We, we have, uh, a movie. I recently, or you watched from, again, the early nineties, Gus Vance, my own private Idaho, which is about.
Two young men who actually are both, uh, gay hustlers. So they practice gay sex and in that sense they're out. But the problem is that one of them is in love with the other and wants to actually have a relationship with him and that. Is impossible for a variety of reasons. So there's a whole slew of, of, of texts that came before our beloved heated rivalry that leads to the moment in which we find ourselves right now with it.
Alex Schwartz: There is something about the closet. In, 
Naomi Fry: there's just something about the closet 
Alex Schwartz: in gay, in gay literature, in gay filmmaking. It's the closet is in addition to being a realistic problem and feature of much of, you know, gay life through, through modern history a. Also has a very, very strong narrative appeal because it means secrecy and it means the possibility of revelation.
And so when you're writing a story like that, and this happens in heated rivalry, immediately there's pressure and immediately there's narrative tension. And I think all the time when I think about this question about, um, a passage in. The great English writer, Alan Holing Hurst's first novel mm-hmm.
Called the Swimming Pool Library. Alan Holing Hurst is one of my favorite novelists. Um, he's a gay novelist. He writes about day life. We love you, Alan. We love you. Allen. Come 
Naomi Fry: onto to the show, Alan. 
Alex Schwartz: Love you, Alan. Um, there is this fascinating passage in his first novel, the Swimming Pool Library. This is a book that was written in 1988.
It was written in the midst of the AIDS crisis. And it takes place before it takes place in the early. Eighties before AIDS is a thing. It's about a young man who is initiated into the history he's gay, initiated into the history of gay life in England by much older quote unquote queer peer of an English Lord, and meanwhile is having his own sexual initiation, having a lot of sex in the course of this summer, crazy summer.
Naomi Fry: Crazy sex in this book. Like crazy, crazy, crazy explicit, like, yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: If you like heated rivalry, please go right to the swimming pool library by. Alan holing Hurst. 
Naomi Fry: But it's, I I, I will caution that it's much more raw, I would say, than heated rivalry. It's, it's not kinda sanitized in the same way. 
Alex Schwartz: No, it's, it's certainly not.
It's, this is not a romance novel. Let's, let's be clear 
Naomi Fry: about that. And it's not a YA novel. 
Alex Schwartz: No. 
Naomi Fry: Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: But there is a passage that. It's very fascinating to me where, um, this younger man will says to the older one, I'm always forgetting how sexy the past must have been. Mm. And the Lord says this to him. He says, oh, it was unbelievably sexy.
Much more so than nowadays. I'm not against gay lib and all that. Of course, William, but it has taken a lot of the fun out of it, a lot of the al and. He then goes on to say, I think the 1880s must have been an ideal time with brothels full of off-duty soldiers and luscious young Dukes chasing after Barer boys.
So what's so interesting to me about that passage, so many things are interesting to me. One is that the closet is a site of fantasy and one is that the past is a site of fantasy. Also, like the 1880s were not an ideal time to be gay like Oscar Wilde was, did not have a, a good go of it. In the end. I think what's interesting is this attraction to, um.
To the secretive, to the sense of like, what gives something more stakes? What gives something more pressure? What gives something more intensity than. Needing to undergo an experience, even though there's great social cost mm-hmm. And secrecy and privacy. And I think that that's something that, um, you know, gay literature, I'm thinking of literature in particular is reckoning with, like, I I just read Edmund White, the, the wonderful novelist Edmund White who died last year.
Um, I just read his last book, which is called The Loves of My Life. It's about, it's a big sex memoir. Um, you know, he says he's had sex with 3000 men over the course of his life. Here are some of them. And so it's a book full of sex. But he also says this really interesting thing in the book. He says, um, about his own recent fiction.
He says, my recent fiction is less autobiography and more thought experiment. And he says, often I want to lead the reader to a better, more compassionate, more forgiving, bolder, more loving world by picturing it as if it already existed. To me, that's heated rivalry. That is what heated rivalry does on a very real level.
But I think there's a real question about how much literature like that. We, we want. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. But it's, what it makes me think of is another feature of, uh, heated rivalry, which is that like one of its preconditions because of its setting. Uh, professional. The world of professional sport is that everybody that we are made to care about is very rich.
Naomi Fry: Yes. 
Vinson Cunningham: Um, narrative fiction is so often about the, the world of the bourgeoisie. A a certain like amount of assumed prosperity or sort of the normative world of the middle class and above the closet is a space that intersects with that line, but is not parallel with it. Like takes you off into the world of Bohemia, takes you into other parts of society that middle class respectability cannot touch, right?
Mm-hmm. And so in, in a certain way, it's a kind of tourism, right? And I think that's part of why it, it's so. Exotic and romantic, and perhaps nostalgic as well, because the moment something becomes mainstreamed, um, and you, you hear this, you know, there are certain, you know, radical gay men who are still like, gay marriage should never have happened.
You know, the moment something becomes legal, it becomes commoditized corporatized. Mm-hmm. Smoothed over kind of CGI eyed, uh, and loses much of its originary texture such that it can be simultaneously true that it was better and it was worse. 
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. 
Vinson Cunningham: Back in the day. 
Naomi Fry: Right. Yeah. That's really interesting Vincent.
And I think, and this might be a bit of a spoiler for, uh, listeners who have not yet watched or haven't reached the end of, of the show yet, but I will say it anyway, um, that at the very end. After ILI and Shane go to Shane's cottage, it comes to, it comes past that. They are discovered by Shane's parents.
And so there is this kind of like. Coming out scene where Shane has to discuss the fact of his gayness with his parents. What's interesting to me is that the, the mom is a momager, Shane's mom mm-hmm. Also manages him and is very savvy about kind of the landscape of professional sports. 
CLIP: Heated Rivalry
Naomi Fry: The moment of like. We're not coming out quite yet.
Right. In some ways can be taken as like, okay, this is, is this a little bit regressive? You know, are they not out and proud? Like, why are they hiding their true identity, et cetera, et cetera. But in another way, it's kind of like a little bit in, in the sense that you were talking about Vincent A. Little bit radical.
It's like, no, we're keeping it to ourselves in order not to be kind of like used and commoditized as this entity. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. 
Naomi Fry: In this like game of identity that these corporations are playing. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. I mean this is totally a total, um. Side thing, but I think it applies here. I dunno if you guys have seen the show, I love la, but one of the characters in it is a mod, is a sort of like Instagram model who also happens to be queer.
I think she's bisexual or something, you know. But she has a girlfriend and unfortunately her marketing agency comes to know this, and then they. Do this, like, you know, queer, like rainbow colored Ritz commercial with her. Mm-hmm. And she's like, it's like the saddest she's ever been. It's like, oh my God, this is the worst thing in the world.
It's the corniest, cheesiest thing that's ever happened. I feel like this makes me feel homophobic, how much my sexuality has been used. Yeah. You know, there, there is a way that like, you know, pulling sexuality or like into the sort of. Lattice work of, of, of things that are sort of like tolerated in mainstream society.
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. 
Vinson Cunningham: It's hard to explain why it does feel like a, a, a kind of ric victory. 
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. 
Vinson Cunningham: But it does. 
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. 
Vinson Cunningham: In a minute, yearning is back. If you really love us, you'll stick around.
:: MIDROLL:: 
In this kind of mix, I think we should also just bring in an a, something else, which is, uh, the movie Pillion, uh, which is coming out next week. It's directed by Harry Lighten and Stars, Harry Melling. Alexander Scars guard. Um, does anybody wanna quickly synopsize? 
Alex Schwartz: Yes, 
Vinson Cunningham: please. 
Alex Schwartz: Pillion takes place in the present.
We have a, I think he's supposed to be 26 in the movie, I wanna say. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, just a real virgin. Sorry. But that's, that's it. This is Colin, played by Harry Melling, and, uh, he does stuff like live at home. With his mom and dad. He sings in a barbershop quartet with his dad, which is both adorable and like absolutely the most, um, 
Vinson Cunningham: the symbol of his virginity.
Alex Schwartz: I mean, it's the hats they wear. 
Naomi Fry: He's a good boy. 
Alex Schwartz: He's a good boy. He's a good boy to a point of pathology. Yes. And his parents are, and this is a refreshing twist on the usual tropes of the genre. Totally ecstatic that he's gay. They just want him to be with a nice man. Yes, they try to set him up on a date at the start of the movie, but that doesn't go well.
Instead, he crosses paths with Ray, who is just a hot Nordic stud, played by Alexander Skarsgard, who happens to ride a motorcycle, 
Naomi Fry: who happens to be a hot Nordic 
stud, 
Alex Schwartz: who happens to be a hot Nordic stud with a few words, and, um, you know, a, just a large and handsome body. And whose first, whose first date?
It's true. His first date with Colin is to take him out back behind some trucks in a kind of quiet passageway on Christmas Day in London to remove his motorcycle leathers and he proceeds to unzip. And Harry Melling, you know, attempts, Phia, whatever, doesn't do very well. I should actually just call him by his name.
Colin. Um, licks, licks ray's boot, and is at this point the relationship between them is established. Basically, Ray is a major Dom and Colin, he susses out, has great potential as a sub, and this relationship is taken to an extreme when Colin goes to, uh, Ray's house and is treated. Just like a non-entity, he, he arrives at Ray's house.
Mm-hmm. And instead of being greeted in as if you were on a date, he's immediately told by Ray, do you need me to show you around the kitchen so you can make dinner? He doesn't get to eat that dinner next to Ray. Instead, Ray's dog eats it. Yeah. Ray goes upstairs, brushes his teeth, gets into bed and says, yep, you're sleeping on the floor.
It gives them a shopping list in the morning and their relationship is established. And of course, the name of the movie Pillion has to do with the motorcycle gang that bra is part of. He's part of a group of like gay motorcycles who are all into BDSM. Many of them are in long-term relationships between the DOMS and their pillion.
Yes. Yeah. The guys who ride behind them on, on the bike. And the big question, the movie. I think is, I think this is such an interesting movie because we see Colin coming into his own, uh, discovering his sexuality, discovering who he really is as a sexual being, and therefore as an adult through Ray. And we also see him start to chafe against the constraints that Ray has imposed.
CLIP: Pillion
Naomi Fry: Yeah. I really, I love this movie because of this particular kink formation that they are part of it that comes to a place in some sense, the role, the closet. Has kind of like more traditionally played in the kind of like gay romance of the 20th century or also in, in heated rivalry, right? Like the, the very structure of this, of this relationship has yearning established into it and has also the misunderstanding of the broader environment around the relationship.
For instance, there's a scene where, uh, finally after Colin asks, asks him and wants him to do so, Ray somehow agrees to, he cracks a little bit and agrees to come with Colin to have, uh. A meal with Colin's parents who have been asking, why can't we meet Ray, you know, in a kind of very innocent, innocent, sweet way.
And Ray finally agrees they have this meal together. And of course Ray treats Colin like shit and. The, the parents just parents just don't understand. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. 
Naomi Fry: It's 
Alex Schwartz: when your, when your son, son shows up with a chain around his neck. 
Naomi Fry: Yes. 
Alex Schwartz: You know, locked up like a dog and the man with the key is sitting right next to him.
They didn't expect it. They didn't expect that. For their 
Naomi Fry: right. So how do you explain to your parents, how do you explain to the world that the thing that you want is kind of conditioned by unsatisfied yearning? That the actual satisfaction is the unsatisfaction. 
Alex Schwartz: And I would actually even add to that.
Does explaining it ruin a piece of it? Yes. Yes. 'cause here I think we have the narrative. I think what's going on in a way is. The As to go back to the hauling Hearst, the freson of the closet. There is a, there is a, a sexiness of freson to the secrecy and because of the extreme nature of the relationship.
It needs to be shrouded in secrecy. They, they quite literally can't go out in public and act like a quote unquote regular couple because there's no framework in the relationship for that to happen at a really interesting moment in the movie, um, Colin does ask for a break from this so that they can do that.
And. You know, see the movie to find out what happens. But the only other way they can really go out is in this very, very closed group of bikers who all know the codes. And it's both like a safe space and also a really, really, um, kind of asphyxiating space. It's both, and that's what I think is really interesting about the movie, that it's both a total freedom and release and also a total prison.
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, it's interesting this, this thing of like these contemporary stories where. Gay relationships are totally in the larger culture, totally accepted. And that there are sort of like closets within closets. One thing is like the, the very supportive, um, uh, parents of Colin, I was thinking about this in heated rivalry because of course there is a very supportive father.
Um, the barista Kipp. You see? 
Alex Schwartz: Love that 
Vinson Cunningham: man. His father is like, what's up with you? I love you. Everything's gonna be fine. Like, you're gonna do great at this job. He's a great father. And yet Kip, because he's entered a different world, a world that he didn't expect to be in. All of a sudden,, he's like in a different kind of closet like it's a hockey player and therefore he can't.
All of a sudden there's a subcultural layer that makes even what is nominally or like sort of de jour accepted in the wider society all of a sudden. There's a deeper place that others cannot go. Right. And so it, it, it's like even is the closet even worse in liberal pluralistic society? Because it's like, it's also like a, an an added question of like, why don't, why am I in here again?
You know? And so like Yeah. Are, are you seeking another closet in a sort of largely un unc closeted cons? Yeah. You know, does, does the sort of. Broader opening of the closet in the wider society force us to seek deeper closets. 
Alex Schwartz: I, I think, I think that's such a good question. I also, you know, what you're making me think of Vincent, is also the way narratively, both in life and in fiction, that the closet, the closet is not just a phenomenon that operates around the people who directly interact with it.
The closet is something that lets everyone else in the society also define themselves. So like mm-hmm. The thing that happens in pillion that is really fascinating is. You know, the, the working class Salt of the Earth parents of Colin, who have made the cultural evolution towards acceptance actually aren't as accepting as they think and have to come up against that.
It's a narrative device that everyone is implicated by. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 
Vinson Cunningham: It, it does seem though that the structure and the engine of both stories and of, um, some of the others that you mentioned, Naomi, is this, this like, just sort of overweening yearning.
Is that, is, is that dimension of the romance story or the, the, the, the, the story of sexual becoming? Is that something that we're just kind of. The culture is opening itself back up to there's like the, the depths and possibilities of just frank yearning. 
Naomi Fry: Yeah. I mean, I think I, I was, and I, and I texted you guys in our little critics chat.
Vinson Cunningham: Mm. 
Naomi Fry: Um, I saw that the criterion. Channel for February. You know, they have these collections that they do every month of, of, uh, themed, themed movies. And, uh, they have one in February that's, uh, centered on yearning. Hmm. And I was like, okay, yeah, this is, this is definitely in the air. And it's like, I'm, I'm wondering what you guys think.
Like, has it been kind of like. A certain cynicism that has ruled the culture that has made us turn away from yearning. And is there kind of like a reintegration of yearning as we reach back towards earnestness? Is that part of it, like, 
Alex Schwartz: oh, that's interesting. I think, you know, oh, what a good question. I.
Yearning is, I think we can just establish as a fact, yearning is in 2026 is the year of the yearn. Oh wow. People are yearning 
Naomi Fry: already. 
Alex Schwartz: They're writing about it. We're 
Naomi Fry: already saying it. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah, we're saying it. We're calling it, it's the year of the yearn. Oh, yeah. Once the year is good. We don't even need to discuss our end of the year episode.
We, we've done it, yeah. 
Naomi Fry: Year. Yeah. And we are doing an event at the 92nd Street y. February 19th. Mm-hmm. About weathering heights and talk about a yearning text. Right. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. The only reason I feel okay with us already being at the end of today's, close to the end of today's episode and just getting to yearning, is I know that yearning with a capital Y is coming for us with weathering heights.
Yeah. And we are going to get to engage so much more deeply in the yearn. So come see us for that. But Nomi, I think that's really interesting about sincerity because yeah, yearning is predicated on sincerity for sure, and it's also predicated on lack of gratification. Mm. And one thing that I think if I, if I can once again return to heated rivalry, one thing that's so interesting about heated rivalry is some of, a little bit of a retro element.
I don't mean in terms of its politics. I mean, I mean just in terms of technology. No one is on an app, no one is cruising for sex and getting it right away. It's, there is a delayed gratification that is, um, not so much, I think part of. The culture right now, we're part of how we see the culture. Like 
Naomi Fry: yeah, 
Alex Schwartz: we're living in, we're like deep in the Tinder era and for, for gays and straights and everyone else.
Like it's, we're, we're, we're deep in the kind of like, you know, I can try to order sex like I order 
Naomi Fry: Yeah. 
Alex Schwartz: Food. Mm-hmm. Situation, 
I 
Naomi Fry: mean, Grindr, sniffy. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. We're, we're, we're really, um, into this kind of like, say what you want, get what you want, and. Rinse and repeat. And so I think that something 
Naomi Fry: right, the span between like wanting and getting is ever, ever shortening.
Alex Schwartz: Exactly. Yeah. Um, and has that actually counterintuitively led to a greater need for yearning? Quite possibly, yes. 
Naomi Fry: I love that. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. What do you guys think about the yearning element? 
Naomi Fry: I'm wondering if there hasn't been a kind of like pathologizing of yearning. All of this. Talk about like bread crumbing and orbiting what, what is bread crumbing?
Well, it's like when you actually, I mean, it's kind of like a precondition for yearning in some senses, I think, because it's like when you yearn for someone and that person gives you kind of like little, you know, like shots of dopa, you know, texts you out of the blue but then doesn't follow up or is like.
Says, oh, you, you looked good today. And then, but that doesn't, doesn't like wanna like make a date or maybe like sleep with you. It, but then never follows that. Got it. You know, whatever. And, and I think there's been a lot of discussion. I 
Vinson Cunningham: has a little bit of a breadcrumb. 
Naomi Fry: He's a bit of a breadcrumb. Mm-hmm. we've been kind of like pathologizing the conditions of yearning a little bit maybe, and perhaps we're returning more to like, no, this is just, this pathology is like what's called.
Desire. You know? Yeah. In a way. Yeah. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. I mean, one thing that I kept thinking about vis-a-vis heated rivalry, and certainly at least the Colin figure in, uh, pillion, which is like, there's something very ancient about it, which is like, oh, here's the young man whose whole life is romance. I mean, they don't think about any, I mean, these guys are multimillionaires in heated rap.
They got contracts to sign, they've got endorsement. It doesn't matter. Even 
Naomi Fry: sentimental education, 
Vinson Cunningham: there's one. Yeah. In this world of sort of distracted and attenuated impulses where you feel one thing, one second and another thing the other second, and everything becomes this sort of gray slop, all of a sudden hear these people who's like, everything has to do with this.
It's almost to say like, I wanna reconnect with. With original impulses. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah, 
Vinson Cunningham: it's, it's very like primordial. It's like I wanna go back to the purposes of life or something like that. 
Alex Schwartz: Yeah. And frankly, guys. The reason why I think people keep rewatching the show is to go back to that beginning, is to go back to the urn.
Mm-hmm. The urn burn. Mm-hmm. 
Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. 
Alex Schwartz: They want the urn to burn, 
Naomi Fry: they want the yearn to burn and they want the resolution of that burn, but what happens after the resolution? 
Alex Schwartz: Exactly. 
Vinson Cunningham: I mean, maybe that's what season two of heated rivalry. 
Naomi Fry: No, exactly. But 
Vinson Cunningham: all about, you know? 
Naomi Fry: But will the magic be gone? You know, we'll just have to see. So. 
Vinson Cunningham: We wanted to set aside the last part of this episode to go through some of the responses that we got from you when we asked for your advice in last week's edition of Anita, a critic.
Uh, so thank you so much. Many, many, many more people wrote in than we were expecting with such wonderful recommendations. And so we're just gonna kind of skim our inboxes and give you a small selection, um, to recap. I wanted some advice on taking in culture while parenting a baby. Alex wanted some great texts about sports, and Nomi wanted art that is relaxing, but also enriching at the same time.
Who wants to go first? 
Naomi Fry: I, I can go first. 
Vinson Cunningham: Cool. 
Naomi Fry: Okay. Yes. So I wanted, uh, art and culture that put me in a state of relaxation, but not something stupid. Okay, so I got some great responses. God, I'm so excited. Okay, Danielle? She would recommend BoJack Horseman, which has been recommended to me many times and I haven't pulled the trigger.
Alex Schwartz: Really? 
Naomi Fry: Yes. Which people are always surprised about. 
Alex Schwartz: Yes. Mm-hmm. I am surprised. Okay. Okay. 
Naomi Fry: And, uh, so maybe I'll finally do that. Uh, thank you Danielle Mary, with a kind of experiential suggestion to throw a listening party of an album, any album that I used to love. Sit and quiet, love that, and see what it brings you.
Love that. I love it. Okay, um, uh, g. Uh, with the suggestion to watch W him Wes' Perfect Days, which I haven't. It's a beautiful meditation on the value of public spaces showcasing Tokyo's many gorgeously designed public toilets. 
Vinson Cunningham: Did you see that, Alex? I haven't seen, no, I haven't seen it to you. I really liked it.
I really admired that movie. It was great. 
Naomi Fry: Okay, I'll, I'll do that. Oh my God, I queue up 
Alex Schwartz: tonight. 
Naomi Fry: I love this suggestion from Elizabeth. Jeopardy. Mm. What middle brow heaven looks like. You can feel good about yourself, but also relax. I love that. Uh. Lawrence is suggesting that I go to an art museum, bring music, get a little high, like a gummy high if you like, that sort of thing, and then just wander the museum.
It's not a class. You're not trying to learn anything, Lawrence says, just enjoy with your eyes, guys. I love these suggestions. I wanna do every single. One of them. 
Vinson Cunningham: Incredible. Alex? 
Alex Schwartz: Yes. Um, okay, so here we go from DJH three, mysterious initials. Um, says, I had a wonderful time watching 13 days in France, which depicts the 1968 Winter Olympics in GR Noby.
That sounds fantastic. 
Naomi Fry: Oh my God, that does sound fantastic. 
Alex Schwartz: Combines some of my interests such as Grenoble and Sport 
Naomi Fry: and 1968 
Alex Schwartz: and 1968. A banner year. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Thank you Naomi for Monica. I just finished reading Bear Time by Frederick Blackman. Hockey is the Sport. Okay. Very relevant. And the all encompassing devotion and connection of the people of the small town in Norway to it is the story.
Perfect. From Andrea, the short story for the Love of Grass by WP Kinsella, a Field of Dreams, source, material fame. It's about. Grass. Okay. But also the weird, sometimes quiet and implicit community sports like Baseball Forge among longtime fans. Okay. Jonna recommends the documentary Hoop Dreams an absolute classic  Um, and from Elaine Love and Basketball. Another absolute classic. And Elaine has a very pertinent thing to say here, which is you and Vincent can have more in common and maybe. I can even join the Nix group text that David Remnick and Vincent have. 
Vinson Cunningham: That's right. 
Alex Schwartz: I mean, one can only aspire to such a thing.
Vinson Cunningham: That's right. 
Alex Schwartz: From Shayna. Sports as a whole were something I did not see as beautiful or noble until my sophomore year in college. A friend put on Tokyo Olympiad from 1965, a documentary about the 1964 Tokyo Olympics, and I came to the light. This experience brought me to the beauty wrath and meaning within sports.
Competition. 
Vinson Cunningham: Great film. 
Alex Schwartz: Okay, that sounds great. I think I'm, what I might do guys, is I might do Olympiad and then I might do the, um, 13 Days in France. 
Naomi Fry: God, 
Vinson Cunningham: I 
Naomi Fry: love that. I love our listeners. Listeners. This is perfect. 
Alex Schwartz: Love our listeners. 
Vinson Cunningham: That great. 
Alex Schwartz: Okay, Vincent. 
Vinson Cunningham: Okay, cool. Lots of great strategic advice for me in terms of cramming in, uh, my watching and reading and listening, which is much, much appreciated.
Um, from Lily. As a working mother with a daughter who sleeps around 10, I have this rule, stop any kind of work at 8:00 PM and sleep at 11:00 PM These three hours are for chatting with the kid and my husband, nightly routines, and at least one hour of reading and one hour of watching something, even if it's a great movie that I wanna watch and it's entirety.
I will force myself to stop that, that forcing this, this discipline. You speak of executive function, some call it. This is my problem. Thank you so much, Lily. Um, and also her phone goes on airplane mode after eight o'clock. 
Alex Schwartz: It's all about airplane mode. 
Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Sally. Advice for Vincent about those three sacred hour hours is to speaking of the, you know, these are the hours after your kid goes to sleep, before you go to bed.
This was the, the meat of my question is to first and foremost, spend some time doing nothing, looking at nothing, not meditating. Just take in the day, see how you feel, where you're at. And then she says, you have a much, much better idea of what you would like to do or how you want to spend the evening.
Really, really smart, uh, fellow named Claudio says. Commit to as many events outside of home as possible. Forcing oneself is the, the idea to get out there and sort of give yourself some time to to deal with culture. I like that Zach says he has three kids, eight, seven, and three. Shout out to you and maintain a strict schedule of reading novels on weeknights between 8:00 PM and 10 or whenever, and then he splurges and watches a movie with his wife on Friday.
Or Saturday night. I like that. The sort of the rhythm of reading versus visual media. Um, and then I love this sort of from dj JHI suspect this is the same DJ H that, uh, reached out to you, Alex. 
Alex Schwartz: Thank you. Dj. JH 
Vinson Cunningham: uh, this is the kind of, it's almost fatalistic, but it's like merciful in its pragmatism, which is like.
I suspect, you know, he says you are in a kind of impossible situation. Um, I'm, I'm skimming now. He went to, he used to see every Oscar film and know everything. Now he does it and he says, I'm okay with that. Granted, I'm not a professional critic, but I did find that the world continued to spin without me and all was well, DJ H.
I love the sentiment. The world spinning without me is literally my nightmare and I refuse. Thank you. Listeners. Thank you. As always, we love to give you what we have for you and we love it. Turns out to receive. Thank you. That was beautiful. 
Naomi Fry: Beautiful. Thank you Listeners.
Vinson Cunningham: This has been critics at Large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor, and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Alexis Rado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from PRM Bandy with Mixing by Mike Kuman. You can find every episode of our show at New yorker.com/critics.
We'll see you next week.