Naomi Fry: Guys, this is our brat Summer. Alex Schwartz: This is our, I mean, I feel like I'm finally having my brat, my brat midwinter. It's Naomi Fry: now, it's the midwinter Alex Schwartz: brat now. Naomi Fry: Well, that means maybe that brat can go on forever. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Naomi Fry: This is Critics At Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry. Vinson Cunningham: I'm Vincent Cunningham. Alex Schwartz: And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. My frozen friends, Naomi Fry: oh my God. It's, it's deep freeze Monday. Alex Schwartz: It's, we're coming over here. Yeah. We're coming to you straight from the frozen tundra of New York City. But let's close our eyes for a second. Let's, let's let the sun shine in. Mm-hmm. Think back way back to the Halian days of. Brat. Summer CLIP - BRAT MONTAGE Naomi Fry: Dark sunglasses, white tank tops. the elders were confused. The youngsters were cheering. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Kamala was brat Alex Schwartz: Ariel, I just wanna say the aerial font had a huge moment. I mean, it was Ariel as brat, Vinson Cunningham: maybe the best ever application, not a great, great font. Great moment for that font. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, totally. Naomi Fry: We were all doing the Apple dance. Alex Schwartz: We were all doing the Apple dance. It was brat Summer. Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: What if I was doing the Apple dance? Alex Schwartz: I mean, please do, do the apple dance. Oh no, don't. Naomi Fry: You're Alex Schwartz: encouraged to do the Apple dance. You don't wanna Naomi Fry: see it. Some Alex Schwartz: cameras are in this room. Naomi Fry: You do not wanna see it. Alex Schwartz: To Naomi Fry: the contract. Alex Schwartz: Yes. Naomi Fry: No, Alex Schwartz: I knew she had it in her. You did Naomi Fry: it. You did it. Okay. Okay. Alex Schwartz: She drove the car and everything. [a][b] Naomi Fry: Oh, Alex Schwartz: okay. We're of course talking about, oh God, brat. Summer connected to Charlie X X's album brat. And now just in case you haven't thought about brat in, in a hot. Minute or month, it's back on our minds. Thanks to a new film. CLIP: The Moment Alex Schwartz: The moment is not a documentary, it's more like a mockumentary. Some have called it, um, auto fiction, I believe it is, among other things, a kind of parody of the endless exercise and self-branding that defines pop stardom today. And it's also making fun of a very specific form, the authorized music documentary. That is something that's become, I would say a definitely cliche in the music world. I mean, what are, what are some examples that, that come to your minds when we talk about that? Naomi Fry: Yeah, I mean, one of my forever favorites, Madonna's Truth or Dare from the early nineties mm-hmm. Taylor Swift has released several, a few, a few such, uh, documents. Right. Vinson Cunningham: Beyonce as a purveyor of this sort of experience. Alex Schwartz: Yes. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Yes. Uh, homecoming, Renaissance, et cetera. Alex Schwartz: Lady Gaga, five foot two. Naomi Fry: Yeah, I mean this is a Metallica, some kind of monster. I mean, there there's, there's a lot. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Alex Schwartz: It's the tip. And we are going to go below the water today to talk about a few of these projects. We wanna ask, first of all, do they work? And if they don't, do they fall flat? And how, And my big question is, at a time when even the meekest of us, the regular non pop stars among us are under some pressure to curate our image, put out a public version, try to understand its relation to the private version of the self, What do these very self-conscious, big branding exercises in public pop star persona give us? So that's today on critics at Large, the Moment and the illusion of intimacy. ________________ Okay. Before we get into the moment, let's do what we love to do. Let's define our terms because there are many different kinds of music documentaries. What would you guys say is, is the genre that the moment is parodying Vinson Cunningham: it? It's parroting a certain kind of narrative documentary that places itself. In a particularly, um, difficult, arduous, momentous moment in the artist's life and shows them sort of overcoming the, the hurdle that is whatever, the great big tour, the really important concert, et cetera. Um. At the same time. Right. It's, it's parodying that, but it's also following in a quite established genre as well. This kind of documentary is not like kind of a standalone Charlie XXCX thing. There's like, you know, in 1964, the Beatles made a movie called A Hard Day's Night, which is, you know, it's a, it's a comedy about them getting ready for. A concert, um, spice World by the Spice Girls is, you know, all about them. Sort of like breaking free of the label chains, but it's a very funny comedy. So she is poking at one genre and following, I, I think kind of pretty faithfully another. It seems, Alex Schwartz: yeah, I think I want us to get more into that 'cause I totally agree with you and have thoughts. Um, so let's, let's just talk about the moment. Let's, let's lay it out on the table. It's directed by Aiden Za Miri, who co-wrote it with Birdie Brandis from an original idea by Charlie XCX, The film, of course, stars Charlie XCX playing a version of herself, and the cast list is long. Some of the people in it are actually playing themselves. Rachel Senate, for example, Mel Ottenberg, the. Editor of interview, and then other actors are playing characters like Alexander Skarsgard, who's playing a soulless corporate concert filmmaker named Johannes. And Kylie Jenner even shows up for a minute, definitely as her Kylie self. Mm-hmm. I have no idea what anyone in this room except for me, thought of this film, so I'd love to know. Tell me a heavy sigh. From Nomi Fry. Naomi Fry: Oh God, listen, I really wanted to like this. I really as, as you saw by my faithful Apple dance, just few moments. You know, a few moments ago, um, I, while not an active participant in Brat Summer in any meaningful way, I didn't go see a concert. I didn't, you know, you weren't a Vinson Cunningham: participant. Naomi Fry: I didn't go to the club. CLIP: She was a passive Naomi Fry: participant, et cetera, et cetera. I very much enjoyed brat and I listened to it quite a bit and, you know, really thought it was like a great fun. Album. I wanted to like this documentary. In other words, I was like, let's see. It's an interesting idea, right? Yeah. It's an interesting conceit to ask ourselves like, how long can this shit last? Not, not just about this, but just generally speaking. It's very interesting to observe the kind of ebbs and flows of. Of these cultural moments. And I was looking for this movie to give me, not like an airtight answer, but to explore that question in an interesting and sophisticated fashion as it seemed to suggest it would by, you know, all the promo around it, et cetera. And I unfortunately left unsatisfied. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: I didn't really think, I think the movie was trying to pull off something that it was ultimately. Unable to pull off and like, I guess my feeling was that like the stakes could not be more non-existent. Like I ended up feeling like who. The fuck cares, and what are the stakes here even? And who are these people and why? I ha okay, I had a couple of issues with this. Should I go into them now or should I, I Alex Schwartz: wanna know what Vincent thinks, and then Naomi Fry: I'm, I'm gonna bring it Alex Schwartz: back to your issues. Naomi Fry: I don't wanna overwhelm. Alex Schwartz: Hold onto your issues. Okay. Like delicious little apples. We're just gonna keep using apples. Naomi Fry: Okay. Alex Schwartz: Okay. Vincent, what did you think? Vinson Cunningham: Uh, I, I agree, uh, largely with Nomi. There are parts of the movie that I really did like, but, okay. Charlie X, CX, um, formally a niche performer, right? sort of set to the side for like the really cool and um, sort of drug ad among us suddenly does something that everybody can relate to and she, Naomi Fry: and suddenly everybody wants to be drug. Vinson Cunningham: Everybody wants to be. Drug out with them brat. Yeah. And so the question is how do you carry your new newfound, um, accessibility to mainstream, whatever. She's, she's, she's building a concert douche bag. Alexander Skarsgard is, is, uh, is hired to make the tour movie, and he just takes over the production. Right. And so she's like, what to do? She's like, I'm sorry, I can't deal with this. I'm going to Iha. And she, you know, she go, but, so it's like, um. The, the question of authenticity all hangs therefore on the concert. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And like, Naomi Fry: and another replacement of, of her, um, creative director. Celeste played very well, I thought, by Hailey Benton Gates for the kind of figure of scars, guard. Which are kind of positioned right against each other as kind of like the authentic and kind of like knows what Charlie is about. Person versus this per this other guy. Yeah. Who's trying to make her more palatable for a mainstream audience. CLIP: The Moment Vinson Cunningham: in the moments that it was trying to be funny about fame and just kind of like about how punishing and weird it can be for someone who's not prepared for it, I thought it was really funny There's a great scene where, um, Charlie has absconded to aha on, on vacation while she's supposed to be like managing her tour on Another thing is like. The movie, you could also describe it as a movie about somebody who does not know how to be a boss. Like doesn't, just can't make decisions and therefore folds under that pressure. She goes away, she runs into Kylie Jenner, who I have to say. Is one of the best performers in this movie. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: It's like she does, she Alex Schwartz: has, she has a great moment. Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. As a vision of someone who's actually, Naomi Fry: she's been around cameras a lot. Yeah. The woman is a pro. Vinson Cunningham: She's great. And and that's what, and that's literally the point of her performance. Yeah. She's like inhabiting her space. she's kind of nagging her and uh, being like, oh, I wanted to work with, you know, whatever, Alexander Skarsgard, but, but you, but I'm not mad at you and I think you're gonna do great. But it's like this weird moment where someone with real aura is kind of like doing an alpha thing to her. And Charlie is like wilting under the weight of the interaction. Mm-hmm. Stuff like that. I was like, this is really good. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: But I also think that it wanted to have some, it's like Charlie's breaking down all the way through it. She's kind of screaming and, and sort of changing her mind and whatever. But it didn't, it, I think it either wanted to be way, cra it wanted to be like Black Swan. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Or slapstick. And I think it got kind of caught up in there. And also I just think it chose. Fundamentally to your point about stakes, Nomi, it just, I think because it like lands so much on what's cool and what's not cool, what's authentic and what's not authentic. I think it shows the wrong story. Naomi Fry: What do you think would be the right story? Vinson Cunningham: I think Naomi Fry: yes, Vinson Cunningham: and I don't mean to get like into like diagnostic so early. Yes, but, but I think that it should be about someone like Charlie XCX, whose music and branding has been co-opted by. A doomed presidential campaign of one of the nominee of one of the major parties in in American politics. Oh, interesting. And what it means for like cool to be co-opted into politics and made it to mean much more than it could ever mean. I think that's something that probably actually did face her and whatever. I don't want it to be a blank documentary, but I just think. I would've loved to see a fake Kamala Harris campaign be like, that's brat. And all of a sudden, you know, this girl who just wants to party and hang out and make cool music has to like, mean something in a way more than she has to mean. Instead of like, oh, is my tour gonna have corny visuals or not? Naomi Fry: Okay. I I want to, Alex, I wanna hear what you have to say and then I'll, Alex Schwartz: okay. I'm just gonna leave us in suspense three. Vinson Cunningham: Oh Naomi Fry: God. Did Vinson Cunningham: you, did you Alex Schwartz: two? One. I love this movie. What? I'm actually kidding. I did not love this movie. See, I just did a little bit of a, you know, Naomi Fry: like, oh my god, Alex, my heart was beating like a drum. Alex Schwartz: That's a little brat though that I did that. That's Naomi Fry: Alex is Brat. Alex Schwartz: I'm Brat in 2026. I'm brat. A full 18 months after Brat was a thing, and that would be very on brand for me. Um, nope, you're hitting the nails on the head my friend. You're hitting the nails on the head. And I think this is a film that had really interesting ideas and a noble cause, which is part of extending the Charlie XCX brand, which is to be a kind of harder, harsher, cooler version of pop stardom, but it's the pop stardom that does cocaine in the bathroom and doesn't wear rhinestones. Mm-hmm. Even, you know, and so of course in the movie, there she is. Wearing rhinestones looking like, guess Taylor Swift. You know, it's very, very clear. Yeah. And we can get into Charlie's. Possible beef with Taylor Swift and Taylor's possible beef with Charlie and the way that this movie is taking it. But you know, Charlie, as a, an artist and as a brand and those things are of course very connected in the world of pop is about being alternative. Brat broke through in this huge way, the question of the movie is the question of Charlie XCX, which is like, how much do you extend that? How much do you milk that? And does the very fact of milking that and basking in the success of that means automatically that you're selling out. Like if you're a little bit alt. When you're on the in-crowd, does that automatically ruin you and make you kind of suck? So I think she's working with an interesting question. Um, and to go against, you know, she said that she got approached to make like a traditional concert film around brat, where someone would be following her around with a camera and seeing like, how does she put it all together? Mm-hmm. And how, what she stressed about, you know, maybe like a scene of her smoking a cigarette anxiously before her first t triumph and appearance. Mm. And she didn't wanna do that. Here's the fundamental thing I find really confusing about this movie that I think explains a lot of why it falls flat. It's a re-imagining of something everyone lived through and everyone knows what happened, like, Vinson Cunningham: right. Alex Schwartz: We know none of this happened. I'm not trying to be an idiot to say that. Like we know what the BRAT Tour was. We know that she did a big like remix in the fall of brat. We, we've, we've followed brat. Naomi Fry: Right? Alex Schwartz: So to kind of pretend it turned out differently, like Vincent, I think to your point about Kamala, yeah. This all kind of seems to be like an elaborate way of dodging the real issues that came up. Yeah, like the big scandal in the movie, um, which I thought was a funny gag, is that she is approached by Atlantic Records, her actual record company with whom she has a famously. Difficult history to release a brat credit card that will help a failing bank. Vinson Cunningham: Really funny gag. Alex Schwartz: It's a good gag. I like that. Like it's a vomit green. It's the brat Green credit card. It's for Vinson Cunningham: queer people. Alex Schwartz: It's aimed at young gays. Yeah. It's aimed at young queer people. There's a line about like, how do we know they're gay? Like to qualify for the card. Like, you know, Vinson Cunningham: I just like you, you, you, you can tell, you know? Alex Schwartz: Yeah. There's some funny stuff in there. There's some funny stuff in here. But it also does seem, because. This is a totally apolitical movie when BRA actually just entered political discourse Yeah. At, you know, the weirdest political time. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Yeah. And I also think it's just like an kind of by positioning the whole thing as a, as a kind of parody of what a pop star does when she gets big and then has a hard time finding her way. And how does she d deal with this newfound, you know, kind of surge of fame, et cetera. It's the, the critique, it's kind of like a straw man critique, right? It's sort of like, oh, what if she did this brat card? And it's like, oh, how hilarious. But in fact, the things she does in real life aren't that different. In the Super Bowl, there was a big ad that she did with Rachel Senate for Poppy, for, for this, uh, you know, soda, which is fine. Whatever. I have no qualm. You know, I personally have no problems with it, but this is like literally your life, like you're not. This, it's not funny. It's, it's real. You can't reap the span con benefits and also say you're like making fun of like having a band card. Like what exactly is the difference here? Alex Schwartz: When we're back, we dive into the long history of the music doc. And the authenticity of promises. Naomi Fry: I watched gimme shelter again this morning. Harrowing. I know, but what a pallet cleanser. Alex Schwartz: What a pallet cleanser. Naomi Fry: What a talking because Alex Schwartz: authenticity, baby. Naomi Fry: Because it's like, actually, well look. Alex Schwartz: No, we don't say now. Naomi Fry: Okay. Alex Schwartz: Hold it like a little apple. Remember, do your little apple dance. :: MIDROLL :: We've been talking about the moment, the Charlie XCX movie that parodies. To perhaps not the degree that one might wish, the usual path of pop star branding via concert movie. Um, and we're gonna talk about a few examples in this genre so we can get a sense of what, uh, what the moment is trying to do. So Taylor Swift, just this last December, released yet another ERAS tour product, which is called the End of An Era. It's a six part series on Disney Plus. Yes, I resubscribed to Disney plus. Just to watch the first few episodes of this thing. CLIP: End of an Era - trailer Vinson Cunningham: It's not the movie Chopped up into parts. It's a different thing. It's Naomi Fry: a different Alex Schwartz: thing. It's a six part different thing. Which six? Which parts? Documents? The ERAS tour guys, I've seen parts one and two. Those are the parts I'm gonna speak to. Okay. Six. May I just, may I share it with you? Yes, please. I'm an alien when it comes to Taylor Swift. I have, you know how like some people taste cilantro and then for other people it taste like soap? Vinson Cunningham: Yes. Alex Schwartz: Like I don't think I have. I think I'm a freak, basically. I don't really have the Taylor Swift Naomi Fry: gene. Alex Schwartz: enzyme. Yeah. I don't have the enzyme. Yeah. I, I, some of her music I like totally fine. Yeah. And enjoy, you know, I yearn to be holding hands, crying, making half a heart, and someone comes up next to me. Makes the other half of the heart with our crooked fingers. Naomi Fry: So it just struck me that the apple dance, I know it's supposed to be having an apple, but in fact, Alex Schwartz: thank you. Naomi Fry: It's breaking. Thank you. Apart. Alex Schwartz: Thank you. Naomi Fry: The Taylor Swift heart. Thank Alex Schwartz: you. Vinson Cunningham: Oh, Alex Schwartz: okay. I Naomi Fry: mean, I don't know, Alex Schwartz: I see these heart. These apples, these, these symbols, and I think it's all the same. Oh boy. This is like major cryology happening on this podcast right now. I think we could make headlines with this. It might be with signs of Vinson Cunningham: the times. Yes, Alex Schwartz: exactly. It might be the moment for us. Okay, so guys, talk about executive function. If you want competency porn, watch Taylor Swift Pressing. A wax seal into like 800 envelopes into which she's going to hand out handwritten letters. You're Naomi Fry: kidding. CLIP: The end of an era - scene Alex Schwartz: Telling every member of her production team, her crew, her dancers, her backup, her, everyone that they're about to get, you know, a hundred thousand dollars bonuses 'cause her tour is doing so damn well. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: The wax seal, of course the to me utterly odious scene of her handing out the bonuses which to me is like please, It's just a little too much patty on the back. Mm-hmm. Situation. But yeah, the whole, what I got from the first two episodes at least like, we know that the eras tour was the greatest success of all time of any tour era. We got it, we know. How do we make that dramatic? Vinson Cunningham: Well, there is a huge change in the kind of economy of this kind of work, which is that it used to be. At least it was a documentary crew, a documentarian with her or his own vision coming into your world, intruding and hopefully finding something that you didn't plan. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Right. That the star herself was not in control of the means of production of the documentary. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: More recently with streaming and the proliferation of this kind of one person documentary, um, increasingly it's the person. Commissioning it, they've hired the crew. They're always being taped based all, all the time. And then they kind of chop it up like, you know, Naomi Fry: chop chop. Vinson Cunningham: It's like, oh yeah, I got enough to be like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a little documentary. I'm gonna chop this one up and make it into a series. And I'm the one with that's got all the stuff and therefore it's always a commercial for me, which is less a documentary and more of a sort of. Elongation of something like an Instagram reel except, you know, much more, much better made or whatever. Yeah. Like so for example, and sometimes when you, nowadays, if you get something real, it's because somebody. Slipped up and didn't pay their camera person, their camera person. And somebody else got the footage with Naomi Fry: Con, with the Kanye, with the recent Kanye Vinson Cunningham: documentary Naomi Fry: with, Vinson Cunningham: um, with Sean Combs, um, puffy. Oh, I hired this cameraman. I haven't paid him yet. Somebody else slips in, buys the footage and uses it towards purposes that I didn't mean. So like the fact that if, someone's in charge of the film about them. Unless this person is really trying to achieve some, you know, self scalding vision or something like that, it's just hard for that to be interesting. Alex Schwartz: It's hard for that to be interesting. I do wanna just because I'm courting danger. Beyonce, an artist I hugely enjoy. Mm-hmm. Who I've like. You know whose music resonates a lot more for me than the music for Taylor Swift, whose film Homecoming I watched twice. Like, loved it. I definitely was like crying, whatever. Like, was I the target audience? No. But I love that shit. About her Coachella performance. CLIP: Homecoming Like, I still remember her talking about like her body dealing with her body and, and her baby weight and trying to perform again. So guys. I watched another entry in this genre, or I watched, I should say, a piece of another entry in this genre, um, her Renaissance movie. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Which It's stultifying. Yeah. It makes you feel. What's interesting to me about that movie is it makes you feel. How not the experience of being at the concert you're having. Like you're watching people have a religious experience, seeing Beyonce crying, feeling connected to one another, similar to the ERAS tour. Mm-hmm. And really none of that is coming through the screen. And there's a weird moment in the middle of the movie when it goes to black and white and a kind of like, you know, artsy, but also like futuristic way. And Beyonce is just saying the most obvious stuff about how many people go into making a huge. Concert tour. Mm-hmm. And it could have come right outta the Taylor Swift on any of these. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Like, they want you to see the enormous effort. Mm-hmm. And you do, but there's still this demand to be amazed by the spectacle after, like revealing it after scenes, the behind the scenes showing the guts of it behind. Yeah. So you have to be very, very to, to pull that off. Right. Which is the main point. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: You know, the, the beauty, the glory. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: You have to kind of minimize the other stuff. Naomi Fry: I was thinking about, you know, other documentaries. Mm-hmm. Other music documentaries. That I've loved or been interested with in, in the past. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna rewatch, uh, the Maal Brothers gimme shelter from 1970. Mm-hmm. I've mentioned this I believe in, in previous episodes, um, is documents the Stones 1969 American tour and the lead up, and then the disaster of their. Show in December, 1969, Altamont Speedway near San Francisco, where a man was murdered by the Hell's Angels. Um, uh, um, a black man named Meredith Hunter in front of the stones as they played, and that is captured on film. Of course, nobody knew that this would happen. Um, and then there are clips. After, uh, the Altamont concert of the Stones watching footage from the concert and the actual footage, which is kind of like the, the, the second half of the movie CLIP - Gimme Shelter and the absolute chaos that is captured on film, it creates, um. Something the likes of which we'll, you know, never see again, because you see just the, you know, the Meisel's brothers, just the, the way they capture faces In the audience, just like. People totally having bad trips on acid. You know, people, there's like one of the Ha Hell's Angels. There's this like stunning frame where you see like Mick Jagger like singing, getting through the concert and the focus is on one of the Hell's Angels just looking at him just like so, um. Menacing, you know, so full of doom. And it's just like one of the most stunning documents of an era. Vinson Cunningham: honestly, I think I was just listening to, to all like that great stuff you said. No, man. It's like that era, it's so clear. The porousness between. The world. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: The, the, the, the political dimension. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And the star Naomi Fry: completely unprotected insane. Vinson Cunningham: One is Naomi Fry: insanely, so Vinson Cunningham: each one is sort of impinging directly on the other and changing it Naomi Fry: mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: In a certain way. So everybody mm-hmm. Is affected by the existence of the other. On maybe the far side is maybe Taylor Swift or even the totally apolitical reality that Charlie XCX is inhabiting the corporate superstar who. Is really kind of aloof from the world of politics and like everyday people, thinking about all this, I did rewatch a movie that maybe ha shares more in DNA with uh, the Moment, which is the Spice Girls movie. Spice World. Naomi Fry: Oh, yes. Vinson Cunningham: the Spice Girls, it's like the nineties. And therefore it's maybe in between this continuum. Mm-hmm. And the whole point of the movie is them dealing with, again, a kind of machine around them. CLIP: Spice World There's the, uh, the truly evil figure of the label head who's like, I don't care if they, if they need rest. No rest for them. Naomi Fry: Wait, who is Richard? Um, Richard Grant is Richard. Yeah, she's the antagonist. The, the, the villain, Vinson Cunningham: right? I think, yeah. But I think the, um, the villain, I think the head, he's the, the label head. Head, right. Yeah. Naomi Fry: Incredible Alex Schwartz: facial hair. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, that's right. Meatloaf is their tour bus driver. Yes. There's so many funny little intrusions, but, um, against that, it's about them trying to take back. A kind of power girl. Power girl. P and and and kin girl power. Naomi Fry: No. Literally Vinson Cunningham: no. It is true. And Naomi Fry: it's true. Vinson Cunningham: And they're, they're all sort, you know, they've got these, you know, sporty spice, baby spice, et cetera. They've got all these posh spice, scary, they've all got these personas that are tied to various visions of femininity, and they're saying, no, I don't want inhabit these anymore. So they switch personas. They're all like joking around, like, posh is gonna be baby now, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, what the movie events is, is a total understanding, even through this kind of, almost like Monty Python ish Ratta joke format.Like they’re great jokes. Naomi: and it’s kind of a hard days night right too? Running away from fans. Alex: I think they consciously talk about a hard days night. Vinson: yeah It's so funny. There's like little really silly jokes, like where some character says, I don't care if the spice girls, uh, find a cure for deja vu. And the other guy says, that's right. And then the other one says, I don't care if the spice girls find a cure for deja vu. Like there's really. Silly word jokes. Yes. Just great stuff. But God Alex Schwartz: bless. Vinson Cunningham: We Alex Schwartz: didn't know how good we had it. Vinson Cunningham: It's great. And all it evinces though, is a total understanding of what they mean culturally. It, it's not funny if they don't understand what they mean in the real world. And like, just to bring it back to the moment for a minute, that's what I was like, okay. Like Charlie's this person. By all accounts, she works with the cool, like, you know, the, the, the late great producer Sophie, the, like, the coolest, most sophisticated musicians in the world is who she works with. She's got great taste and what this movie asked me to believe is she doesn't like, she just is nothing. Exactly. That's, and so it's like. Either we, we have the, the, yeah, Naomi Fry: there's no way, Vinson Cunningham: like what is this? Either if she's like, who she is, the arch sophisticated, or tell me that this person who's a creative director is actually, the brain is behind it and she actually is somebody with no taste. And now like, it's funny because we're learning that her taste is actually resides in somebody like something, but like we're just throwing away the whole archetype that her persona has given us. It's like, why don't you play with something that's. Real Anyway, the Spice Girls are like, I know exactly how you see me. And the whole joke of this movie is that I'm gonna subvert it without like throw Totally tossing it away. Naomi Fry: They embrace their C Their own Cartoonishness. [c] Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, yeah, Naomi Fry: yeah. Alex Schwartz: Spice World, may I it, I'm all about big statements today. It may be a work of genius and I just wanna add this in because. Looking at the letterboxed reviews of the moment, we have Charlie's own comment about the movie, about her movie. Um, and then she writes, PS I'm being a good sport and not reading my own films from now on. But obs I would be giving this five stars even if I wasn't in it. 'cause it's so spice world coded. How could I not exact? Yeah, so I do think she's, you're very wise to go there, Vincent, Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, and and I will say with the Brett card and other things, when it was most spice swish is when I liked the moment best. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Yes, totally. It is so hard to achieve authenticity. Even though we all crave it, that's in a minute. On critics at large from the New Yorker, :: MIDROLL :: We've been talking about concert documentaries, music films, reference points for the moment, the Charlie XCX movie. Mm-hmm. So it does have me thinking about this question of authenticity and again, the like paradoxical idea of authenticity and something like pop music mm-hmm. Which is of course, total artifice. Um, I mean, what do you, what do you guys make of that when it comes to this kind of image making? Naomi Fry: Yeah, I mean, I think there is, it is really hard to both reveal and conceal at the same time or reveal enough in order to. Make the concealment seem not like cock blocking, you know, but to, to make, to, to kind of like invite the fan in. But not in a way that feels unsafe or feels like you mm-hmm. Are going to be showing something that can get, get you canceled, that can get you, that can make you sell less, that can make you unloved. You know? It, it's, mm-hmm. It's a real, it's a real trick. And I think maybe the best example of the kind of like concealing, revealing thing, um. That I've seen with like an enormous star is once again, I'm gonna go back to, to a movie. I, I already briefly mentioned Madonna's Truth Dare, from 1991, which, uh, Al Kian directed and it documents her Blonde Ambition tour. CLIP: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: And it's really one of the best documents about what it's like to be ultra famous that I've seen. One of my favorite moments is where like, she is being, she's having some ear, nose and throat trouble. A doctor comes to her, she kind of like sticks out her tongue, you know, and the doctor is like, say, ah. And she's like, ah, you know, meanwhile, Warren Beatty. Who she is dating at the time mm-hmm. Of the, of the making of the movie is like. he's very kind of like critical Yeah. Of her kind of like proto reality tv. Mm-hmm. Attempt to kind of like record everything. Play it all open, supposedly. CLIP: Truth or Dare He gets very upset about it. And it kind of shows these two, um, paths. The, the kind of newer path of like, I'm gonna show myself for real behind the scenes, even though of course that is completely, you know, artificial and artificial construct of what real is. And he's like, no, no, no. I am a star who's not gonna reveal himself. BTS Like, you know, it's just, it's just kind of an interesting, like two, two roads diversion, a wood mm-hmm. Moment. Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: The old way and the new way. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Two paths for the novel. Naomi Fry: Two paths. Yeah. Um, two paths for the novel. Two Alex Schwartz: paths for the pop star. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. There you Naomi Fry: go. Two paths for the pop star. Vinson Cunningham: It, it, I also think, you know, some of this goes to a real anxiety, and I, I think you can see it among pop stars of like more contemporary vintage perhaps that, you know, the early stars of the fifties and sixties and maybe even early seventies weren't. Really making reference to anything. [d]You know, there were stars before, there were famous people before, but in the age of mass media, plus like the invention of the teenager and um, a certain kind of mass produced pop music, record labels and all this kinda stuff. It was new what they were doing. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And so while they were. Um, there was quality control and notions of that. There certainly wasn't, they weren't making reference all the time. And it does seem to me that someone like Beyonce or Taylor Swift is working with someone like Madonna, Michael Jackson, um, James Brown, whatever, a, a former notions of. Pop stardom in mind. And so their responsiveness sometimes is less to the world and more to an archetype that already exists. Their anxiety perhaps echoes ours where it's like we are recipients of various forms of mass media. Um, are we responding to, are we, do we have access to the real, the REAL as opposed to the real REEL?[e] You know, Instagram feeding us. Images, ideas sounds, and we think we're responding to real conditions and really we're just being tossed and turned. I think totally. You know, the, the new pop star is kind of an avatar for us in this way. Am I, you know, quote unquote touching grass or, uh, am I just kind of, uh, navigating, you know, another cliche, a hall of mirrors of the, of, of some other, um, of, of somebody's making other than my own? Um. The idea of the the pop star who's always in the bus, always like watching videos. Oh, I'm making a reference to this, reference to that. Um, it does seem like there's a sort of diminishment of. Power and connection that I think these newer things, do you guys feel that anxiety, first of all, Alex Schwartz: the anxiety of getting, of, of getting to the real Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Of, of course. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you're getting it. I think you're getting at it like you're really getting at the thing there is, I think there's even like one extra layer of confusion and chaos going on. Mm-hmm. Which is the. The need, the need for a huge celebrity to seem real knowing. I think you absolutely put your finger on it when you were talking about Madonna and um, you know, kind of like preceding this reality tv. World where cameras are always rolling, so everything is relevant, everything is content. But then of course you are performing because the camera is rolling. So there is this new genre of real that is and isn't real. And now to make matters more confusing, all of us are implicated because everyone is their own little pop, star of their own confection. Mm-hmm. Even if, even if that's not your thing at all, even if you're just, you know. Whatever the fact that, that there is a public persona that that can readily be, had a public avatar that can readily be had for every ordinary person. It, it, it creates this problem on both ways where the famous people are trying to be real, the real people are trying to seem famous, or maybe they're not, but that's its own kind of reaction. So I think like something like, um, like Vincent, I think you're just totally getting at the, the crux of it and something like the moment is coming is entering. Into a lineage of both things, of like the effort to. Explore like the reality of an artist and what goes into that. Mm-hmm. With a kind of straightforward documentary and also the playing with that, that's already happened because there's also now lineage of like, fakery around this question of, um, of authenticity. Yeah. Like to, I that seems like total word, word salad. So I actually have like two things in mind. Ally. Yeah. To, to make it more comprehensible Please. Because my own brain is spinning. Now, one thing I thought about a lot while watching, um, the Moment was the movie. I'm still here directed by. Casey Afflic starring Joaquin Phoenix as Joaquin Phoenix. Mm-hmm. Pretending to step away from acting and playing a version of himself that like, do you guys remember this? He like famously committed to the bit. On Naomi Fry: Letterman. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. And like for like two years. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Insisted that he was done with acting, he was gonna become a rapper. This like really? He Naomi Fry: was like a slovenly asshole. Alex Schwartz: Slovenly asshole. Yep. That's the persona. And he really leaned in the, into the slovenly asshole persona. And so there's one clip in particular that I was thinking of, um, where Joaquin Phoenix is like walking around in this fake documentary, which. Wasn't clear was a fake documentary at the time in this blue hoodie, and he's talking about how he doesn't wanna play himself anymore. CLIP: I’m Still Here you know, I don't wanna play Joaquin anymore. I just don't wanna be playing that part anymore. Where Of course, that's exactly what's we're doing, what he's doing right. He's leaning into it. And so like, should any of your heartstrings be pulled by that? Sense of like wanting to step outside the prison of a persona you've created. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Jokes kind of on you. He's leaning into it. Vinson Cunningham: no. I wanted to, I've been wanting to ask you because you know, you are kind of an aficionado of a very related form that might like answer this question I have, which is like, what do we want when these people disclose things, you're really, you've read a lot of sort of, uh. Artist biographies. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You know, the mm-hmm. The, the books that they put out. Autobiographies. Memoirs. Mm-hmm. This form of, okay. Now I'm gonna tell you what it's like, what happened behind the spectacle. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: What do, what do you want from those and what is sort of like, different than this kind of, like this form they're talking about this movie thing. Naomi Fry: I, of course, in my jealous, you know, kind of like my, my desires, my greedy, jealous desires. Um. I would want full revelation, full disclosure. I know that's not realistic. Yeah. I think I've found that you tend to get that more with the people who aren't extremely famous. Which makes a lot of sense, right? Yeah. Or people who are very past their prime, you know, so either people mm-hmm. Who are kind of like, were adjacent to fame, character, Vinson Cunningham: actor or something like Naomi Fry: that, span a lot of time around famous people. Mm-hmm. And were maybe kind of in rooms, you know, that, you know, people behaved kind of like badly or honestly. Or people who used to be famous. And are now past that, but is already, you know, kind of doesn't give a fuck. For instance, you know, like Motley Cruise the Dirt? Mm-hmm. Which is like written many years past, uh, you know, this heavy metal band Bears, yeah. Band, hair, metal band's. Prime. Um. Is just kind of a no holds bar, like disgusting, but also like invigorating and interesting and honest. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Look at what it was like when they were kind of like on top of the world. Right. But I do think it's very tricky when a person is still within their Yeah. Uh, moment. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: To get an actual honest take. Vinson Cunningham: That's so great. I mean, it's almost like, you know, are we just looking in the wrong place, like the pop star at the top of their pop startup? Is that just the wrong place to look for the, the, the goods that we want? Alex Schwartz: I kind of think like, are we looking in the wrong places for authenticity? We might be. I, I do feel not to just like be, you know, getting him in here because he's very like hugely happening this moment. The way you guys are talking. I am thinking a lot about Bad Bunny who is so involved right now, like on this huge stage of the Super Bowl of the Grammys or whatever. In putting forward a version of authenticity that I think a lot of people are really relating to. And are really like, and is very moving, especially because it's a time of such hardness and cruelty and, and fear and I feel like. Right now that he, I, I do feel bad Bunny is tapping into like the perfect persona mix of huge megastar popped mm-hmm. Mixed with this kind of like warm personal, like, here's what I'm really about. Mm-hmm. Let me bring you into my world, like in the way that he's set up his set for the Super Bowl to be this like Puerto Rico of the mind basically. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Um. It's not a concert documentary, but I feel like he is walking the line in a, in a way that's working right now. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. And Alex Schwartz: that money is my answer, I guess to the question. Vinson Cunningham: Like, and, and crucially, it's not a total transparency of. Uh, biography Alex Schwartz: or like, Vinson Cunningham: no. Alex Schwartz: Or even like what he had for breakfast. Vinson Cunningham: I don't Alex Schwartz: care. I Vinson Cunningham: don't wanna know. Yeah. It's like a, a clarity of intention. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You know, it's somebody who's saying, here are my politics, here's where I'm from, here's what I care about, and. Yes, I, I will bring an enormous amount of polish to, to that. Um, but someone who's like, sort of sending a signal that has some, you know, crucially with the, the horrors of this ice moment and then bad bunnys, it seems almost direct response to it in many ways. Um, a sort of. Again, grounding in the real, like, oh, this person is talking about something and they have their mind in the world. Yeah. As opposed to someone sort of bouncing signals off of so many panes of glass. This has been critics at large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor, and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Alexis Quadra composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with Mixing by Mike Kuman. A reminder, a very important reminder, you can still buy tickets to see us live next week at the 92nd Street Y. 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