Naomi Fry: This is Critics At Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry. Vinson Cunningham: I'm Vincent Cunningham. Alex Schwartz: And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hello? Vinson Cunningham: Hello? Hello. Alex Schwartz: What's up? Hello friends. Naomi Fry: Hello. Alex Schwartz: So guys. The world is not doing well. Mm Vinson Cunningham: mm Alex Schwartz: There are a great number of stressful things happening right now. We don't know what tomorrow will bring quite literally, but we do know what March 15th will bring too. Vinson Cunningham: True. Alex Schwartz: The 98th Academy Awards. Naomi Fry: Wow. Alex Schwartz: Can you imagine anything more important and momentous than that? Naomi Fry: Listen, we don't have much. Let's concentrate on the good Vinson Cunningham: shelter in the storm. Alex Schwartz: That's true. Yeah. We're, we're absolutely clinging to the Oscars right now, um, to provide us with any bit of levity. And we have been deep in prep mode in part because we are hosting the three of us. The live blog of the Oscars on New yorker.com. So before you go any further, let's just say join us for that. We got jokes, we got pithy commentary. Naomi Fry: We're gonna be tap, tap tapping on that keyboard late into the night, Vinson Cunningham: ready to accompany you on your. Couch or situation of choice? Alex Schwartz: Yes. If you need to set the scene in your mind, please imagine a very elegant, large conference table in a room with absolutely hideous lighting. It's us. It's a group of very dedicated fact checkers, web producers, photo editors, getting it all there so that you can follow along and watch with your three friends, us, Naomi Fry: us. Yeah, Alex Schwartz: please, please do. Yeah, we do. We do actually drink champagne. Vinson Cunningham: That's true. Naomi Fry: We do drink some champagne in plastic cups. Yeah, Alex Schwartz: that's true. Yeah. And more as the night goes on, obviously. So it's, it might be worth sticking around to the very end. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Who knows what we'll say. Alex Schwartz: Exactly. So in any case, the Oscars is also the topic of our show today. We're talking about the big races. We're making some predictions, all the good stuff, and we are honing in on a very specific piece of award show pageantry. The host hosting the Oscars is a notoriously tricky thing. Not a lot of people actually wanna do it because it's really hard to get right, and we wanna know what makes a good Oscars host. What do you guys think? What do you wanna see? Naomi Fry: I want the funny, Vinson Cunningham: funny sort of in on a joke that includes all of us, the audience, but also the audience in the room. They're kind of an intermediary. That to me is like the big thing. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, I agree. It's, it's hard to strike that note because it is, I, and we'll talk about this, but I feel like more recently it's been a bit of a roast job speaking through the figures and the celebrities in the room to those of us beyond it. And I think straddling that line between making fun in a funny way, in an uncomfortable way is a key. Naomi Fry: And it is a fine needle to thread my friends. Alex Schwartz: Yes, it is indeed. So today we hosts are talking about hosting. The biggest hits and misses of Oscar's hosts across the years and about why this role is famously difficult. And you know, hosting isn't just a gig, it's a vocation. Naomi Fry: We know this. Critics at large Oscar hosts when Alex Schwartz: I am there you go sign those three up. The host of the Oscars and host General, it's a figure that's central to the entertainment landscape on tv, on podcasts. What I wanna talk with you guys today about is what this elegant art of hosting actually is and how it's changing alongside new currents in entertainment, comedy, and yes, in our politics. And Thrillingly, we are going to be joined by our official Oscars correspondent friend of the pod, Michael Schulman, who quite literally wrote the book on the Oscars. Woo woo hooray for Michael. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, Alex Schwartz: so that's today on critics at Large, the Hall of Fame and of Shame of Oscar's hosts. ________________ Okay. Like I said. We have a very dear guest today, and honestly, I don't know anyone more read up on the Oscars than he is. He is the Oscars to me. Michael Schulman is a staff writer at the New Yorker. His book Oscar Wars is an extremely fun, very deliciously readable history of the Academy Awards. Welcome, Michael. Michael Schulman: Why Thank you for having me again. Hey, pleasure to be here. Naomi Fry: Hey, Michael. Michael Schulman: Good to see Alex Schwartz: you. Naomi Fry: What a treat. It's, it's, it's always a fun day, just the Michael Schulman: season Naomi Fry: critics of large hq when Michael stops to give us a piece of his mind, Michael Schulman: you know what, it's a, it's been a long winter, but I decided a couple years ago not to observe winter anymore. I, oh, I, I have replaced it with Oscar season. Naomi Fry: Ah, nice. Alex Schwartz: And when does it, when does it officially begin? Michael Schulman: Uh, in like December when it starts getting really cold, I'm like, well. Naomi Fry: It's Oscar season. Michael Schulman: It's it's Oscar season again. Naomi Fry: There's snow, there's the chance of snow. It's Oscar season. Alex Schwartz: That is it. So I wanna hear from all of us, of course. But Michael, let's start with you. Speaking of Oscar, Oscar season, which is what we're here to talk about, what stood out to you in the lead up to this year's ceremony? Are there certain things that you've been watching in particular? Michael Schulman: I would say the category I'm most interested in is best actor this year. Mm. You know, I'm usually more of a best actress person, or let's be honest, best supporting actress person. Naomi Fry: I love that. Michael Schulman: But, uh, yeah, that's really like, that's really like my, my go-to category, but best actor this year is really interesting. It's really wide open. I would not, I, I would not be shocked by any of the five names being read when they open the envelope. I mean, conventional wisdom has been that it's Timothy Chalamet to lose for Marty Supreme, but. I don't know. I mean, just this past Sunday, uh, Michael B. Jordan won the Actor Award, formerly known as the SAG Award. Naomi Fry: What's up with that, by the way? Michael Schulman: Rebrand. Why not? Naomi Fry: Yeah. Michael Schulman: Um, and then Wagner Moura from the Secret Agent also won a, a Golden Globe in a separate category than Chalamet, and yet you have Leonardo DiCaprio who is no slouch in like the movie that is considered the front runner for Best Picture One battle after another. And then Ethan Hawk is just so beloved Yeah. In Blue Moon that if he somehow pulled it off and won, I also wouldn't. Being completely shocked. So it's a, it's a really fascinating category that is just so stacked and I, I, I really feel like anything could happen. Uh, so I'm, I, I, I have no prediction for that whatsoever, which is how I like it. I, I root for chaos. Alex Schwartz: Rooting for chaos is the shortest way to entertainment. I will be shocked if Ethan Hawke wins, not because of the nature of the performance, but just because I think that is by far the least favored. Choice in that category and the smallest movie in the category. Naomi Fry: A real dark horse, if Alex Schwartz: you will. Exactly. I mean, it could be very exciting. Michael Schulman: Yeah. Uh, and the other kind of narrative that I've been really fascinated by is that. It, it's, it sort of has come down to a two-way race, between one battle after another and sinners. Mm-hmm. And those movies have a lot of overlap, weirdly. Sure. This is not a sort of moonlight versus Lala land situation where they're extremely different movies. These are both big hits directed by kind of mid-career auteurs who have not won an Oscar. Yeah. And they both, uh, you know. Uh, they both sort of a talk about white supremacy, but through a sort of populist genre, whether it's vampires or the sort of like paranoid. Thriller Action Flick. Um, they both are led by huge stars who are nominated by best actor and, um, they're both from Warner Brothers, a studio that has had this incredible year of releasing these like original beloved movies that are, that are blockbusters as well as Oscar favorites. And yet this is a studio that is about to be gobbled up by probably Paramount Sky Dance. Um, and it's sort of like a last hurrah, like this, this, this studio will probably triumph at the mo at the sort of the last moment before it, you know, gets zombified into something else. Vinson Cunningham: Well, and also it it, this is not only a, an interesting inflection point for the movie business, as you say, these movies that are both commercial successes but also kind of critical darlings. But it is, it does seem like a ratification of the Oscar's recent. Structural changes to its own nominating processes. Right? Like the lasting complaint was always like, I've never heard of any of these movies, and all of a sudden most of the movies that are being discussed, most foremost, like everybody has seen them. Michael Schulman: Yeah. I feel like it's a function of just, there happened to have been a number of movies this year that were both. Box office hits. Mm-hmm. And original kind of grownup movies. A few years ago I felt like there was this real divide between the sort of the tent pole movies. Yeah. That were like Marvel, star Wars, whatever. And then the little movies like The Nomad Lands and Codas and you know, and NORAs that would then Moonlights be nominated Moon, yeah. Moonlights and then, and people would complain, oh, I haven't seen any of these movies. Which first of all like. I dunno. Watch them. They're good. Yeah. So I, but also it seemed like, you know, for a while the studios had been neglecting the sort of mid-range movie, like, like mm-hmm. Dramas, adult comedies, rom-coms. And that was traditionally the kind of movie that kind of glued the Oscars together with popular taste. I don't know. Maybe there's some hope in that coming back. But again, when people point to sinners and one battle after another as a sign of hope for Hollywood, I'm like, okay, well good luck. 'cause Warner Brothers is about to be, you know? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Michael Schulman: a subsidiary of Paramount. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Michael Schulman: So good luck. Naomi Fry: Good luck. Good luck to us all. Good luck to us all. Michael. Has there been. Anything that surprised you in the nominations? For the Academy Awards? Michael Schulman: Uh, a couple. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously the big story of the nominations was that sinners beat the record for most nominations. 16, right? Per movie. Yeah. It got 16, which is actually, they beat the record by two because the next most were. Uh, all about Eve Titanic and Lala Land all got 14 nominations. Naomi Fry: Mm. Michael Schulman: So sinner's really Naomi Fry: all about Eve. Oh my god, my eyes. I'm getting Misty. Michael Schulman: One of the best, uh, the, the best, the best movie that's ever been made. But um, Alex Schwartz: you don't think Lala Land is the best movie that's ever? Naomi Fry: Yeah. Yeah. You said like the consensus about movie. You were like, Lala Land and all about Eve Got, and I was like, they go, Alex Schwartz: they go hand in hand Naomi Fry: to me. Michael Schulman: Yeah. And part of how it beat that record was magical. The magical magic of Hollywood. It, one of those 16 nominations isn't a brand new category. Best casting, which is new this year. Um, and so that's gonna be interesting to watch. You know, like I feel like the whole academy and sort of the public that's paying attention to the Oscars is getting a bit of a crash course in what cast, what a casting director does. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Michael Schulman: I mean, I have to say, like for me it's hands down Marty Supreme, just by virtue of having cast. Nomi Fry. Naomi Fry: Beautiful cast. Thank you. I, no, but I, I do think, apart from the fact that Jen Vendetti, who is nominated for best casting and who cast Marty Supreme as, as well as many other beloved kind of usually slightly utra, uh, movies, other Safie movies in the past, euphoria, you know, she does a lot of street casting, uh, and casting of unknowns, non-actors. It's very much focused on kind of like the faces, oh, the humanity, you know? Uh, which I think especially as, you know, Hollywood people begin to look more and more like each other every day. Especially the women is kind of like, I don't know, kind of a feat to say this is what people look like. Alex Schwartz: I, I totally agree, Naomi. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Um, I recently saw The Secret Agent, which is such a great movie, and it did strike me. I think there is a kind of simpatico attitude between the casting director of the Secret Agent and of Marty Supreme in terms of looking for people who look like, people who don't look Hollywood, who don't look polished. Mm-hmm. Who represent, um, just humanity. And it's all, its weird beauty. And so I loved the casting of both of those movies. No mean. Vincent, are there races that you have a dog in? Vinson Cunningham: Well, speaking of the secret agent, I really hope it wins the best picture. 'cause it was, it's my favorite movie. Alex Schwartz: I kind of do too. Vinson Cunningham: And I the sort of, uh, the hegemony of one battle after another. It's weird. Like one battle after another has soured in my memory since I saw it. I don't, yeah, I just, I, I, I don't know. I, the certainty around it does not match my feeling. Um, sinners, I found fun. But it hasn't sort of continued to live in my head in the way that, um, the secret agent does. So I'm really excited to, to see if it can gather, um, some steam. Michael, you wrote a great piece about how sort of, um. Among other things, the secret agent is, has turned on the sort of Brazilian fandom and made it manifest here in, in the States in a way that like, sort of has introduced a new element into our understanding of what an, uh, an awards race looks like. Michael Schulman: Oh yeah. Brazil is keyed in to the Oscars, let me tell you, Naomi Fry: come to Brazil. Michael Schulman: They are paying attention. They are in it. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I, to me, I, I, the, the most recent films I've seen in the best picture category are sentimental value and, um, the Secret Agent. And so maybe it's because they're freshest in my mind, but the fact that they're. Nominated for best picture is so exciting to me. These are two, I think of all the movies, and this is a grandiose statement that may not hold up, but of all the movies that are likely really to remain as classics. I think those two are at the very top from this year. And, and there are others that I think will be watched for a long time. Definitely Marty Supreme, one battle after another, but, um, and sinners. But I agree with you, Vincent. Those movies in particular, um, one battle after another and sinners have really faded for me. But one thing I really do love about. Uh, the Secret agent. It really was a connective glue between a lot of movies that I both liked and loved this year. One battle after another. For sure. Both of these movies are about guys who are running from an evil figure backed by the government, a kind of shadowy figure representing political authority and force who's. Quite literally coming to kill them. Um, but also films that aren't on the Oscars list. I really loved The Mastermind by Kelly Reihart. Yeah. And also sat in a, in the seventies and the American seventies. Um, but it really made me think of that again, this kind of loner man and his position to society at a time of political upheaval. And if you stick. Out only for yourself if you stick up only for yourself or if you really are part of the collective. And it also made me think of the very small and very beautiful film by Iris Sachs. Peter Hoja Day. Mm. So good. Which is not an overtly political movie, but it is about the act of recovering through documents and a kind of ingenious idea in the moment to document the present and the future recovery of the documentation. In that case of one day in the life of. The photographer Peter Hoja, and in the Secret Agent there also is this emphasis on how we look in the present at the documentation of the past. Yeah. I just liked it as a glue for all these different ideas coming to us through cinema this year. So I'm big on that movie right now. That's Vinson Cunningham: true. And, and you know, sinners, you know, if, if you could, there are many potential themes that you could sort of embroider from the movies that are sort of foremost in our minds, but this. Emphasis on memory and its many possible permutations and perversions, et cetera, is I think one of the stronger themes that runs through a lot of the stuff. Michael Schulman: You know, when I was working on Oscar Wars and going through a hundred years of Oscar history and focusing on particular years, it's always so interesting to me how. Way in hindsight, you'll see how the slate of Oscar nominees does reflect the times and the politics and what Hollywood is going through. Mm-hmm. But in a kind of indirect way, I mean, just to throw out an example, um, the best picture race in 1976 was one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Dog Day Afternoon, Barry Linden. Um, Nashville and Jaws. Naomi Fry: I like that. It's like five incredible bangers. Cold. Yeah. It's just like, Michael Schulman: it just, it, that to me is the best line of that, of Oscar history. But they're all kind of, um, they share certain similarities. I mean, they're, they're anti-authoritarian movies. Mm-hmm. Like they came out, you know, in, in the heat of the Watergate scandal, and yet they're not about. Nixon in the way that, you know, all the president's men would be, but they have something. I mean, you know, once over the Cuckoo's Nest is about like this corrupt. Authority figure as is the, you know, the mayor in Jaws and there's a kind, and, you know, Nashville's about sort of Amer America, looking forward to the bicentennial and something being kind of off you know, and then I, I think the presence of Jaws also signals how the new Hollywood of the seventies was about to end and become the new blockbuster era of Jaws and Star Wars, et cetera. So. That's how I try to read, you know, a any given Oscar year, it's not gonna tell you exactly what's going on in Hollywood or in or in the country, but it's gonna reflect something kind of simmering under the surface, and that's what I think makes 'em so interesting Alex Schwartz: when we're back, our favorite hits and misses of Oscar's hosts. Without giving it away, can you please tease yours, Michael? Michael Schulman: It is a wonderful night for Oscar. We'll get there. Alex Schwartz: This is critics at Large from the New Yorker. :: MIDROLL :: We have been talking about the Oscars race soon to be decided. So let's turn now to this figure of the host at the Oscars. Conan O'Brien hosted for the first time last year, and he's at it again. We were all in the room except for Michael, but the three of us were in the room watching Conan last year. What did you guys think of the performance? Vinson Cunningham: Well, Michael was in the room watching him. I was in Michael Schulman: the balcony. Vinson Cunningham: Oh, he was? He was in the auditorium. Alex Schwartz: True. So Michael, what, what was it brag like in the room? Vinson Cunningham: Not Alex Schwartz: to brag as he'll. Be brag and tell us Naomi Fry: in his, in his tuxedo. Michael Schulman: That's right. Uh, no, I mean, he, he killed in the room as I think he did on television. Everyone was really happy, you know, it's a hard job. And to find someone who really nailed it, like Conan and brought a lot of. A lot of joy and, and silliness to the role. Um, people were pleased. CLIP - Conan at the Oscars Naomi Fry: yeah, I think a sense of relief is like something that. I at least experienced. It's like, okay, this is a person with real comedic chops. He, it was his first time hosting, but he knows the job. He knows he's had many years to hone the role of being a, a host. He knows how to hold a room, and he's a showman too, you know, he's sang a song about like, not wanting to make the, the, uh, ceremony too long of while, of course, making the ceremony longer. CLIP - Conan at the Oscars yeah. You know, uh, yeah, just like fun and fun. He's smart. He's just smart. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. And also, I mean, I think it is. Under, under reported how much it does, it's also just like a cop popularity contest. You know, what do you mean that host to like, it, it has to be somebody that everybody kind of likes and respects. Oh yeah. And therefore gets away with some of the, you can't just be a blind tyres, you know, of ruining the mood of everybody in the Greek pla. It's like you gotta kind of be, um, Naomi Fry: charisma. It's called charisma. Vinson Cunningham: You gotta be kind of a prom king. Mm-hmm. And Conan is in the middle of a sort of reapp appreciation cycle. I mean, last year. Shortly after he hosted the out Oscars, he was also, uh, the, the mark. Twain Prize and comedy was bestowed upon him at the Kennedy Center. You know, his peers are in a moment too, of saying, wow, what a career. Right. Yeah. Michael Schulman: And also it was, there was a kind of revenge factor because he was, you know, so unceremoniously booted from the Tenai show after a very short stint. Mm-hmm. And just got completely screwed over. And then he was on TBS and now he's got got a podcast. So the fact that he had returned to like. You know, broadcast television in this major role and killed it, I think was satisfying. Alex Schwartz: I want to ask all of you, which is we keep. Saying it's, this is a notoriously difficult gig. What makes this such a hard job? It seems like it would be pretty easy to just kind of like tell some jokes. There are some rich, famous celebrities in the room. You make a little fun of them, but in a kind of fun way, and then you move right along. But we all know that sometimes this really bombs. What makes it so hard? Vinson Cunningham: I kind of think it's hard because it's actually two jobs. Actors talk all the time about how a stage performance is different than a television performance is different than a movie performance. That the, that one acts differently for the camera than one does for the stage. And here we have somebody who's being asked to do both and be, and weirdly, the success of. One the televisual has as its precondition success in the room. Like they're feeling what's working on the, in the room, but also kind of experiencing this channel of connection with the, with the host. So it's really, uh, that part of it seems to me difficult. Um, there's really no way to bomb in the room and survive. On television. Like for, for instance, you know, Letterman was really good at doing that on his late night TV show. There is something like that that can happen on in a different kind of venue, but here it's like, no, no, no, you have to succeed at both. All the time. Alex Schwartz: Are there any moments that have crystallized for you what a great host is or isn't? I, I can't, you know, I, the specifics of the Anne Hathaway James Franco combo have mercifully faded from my mind, but. The aura of it will never leave me the kind of excruciating awkwardness mm-hmm. Of the James Franco. I just don't care. Like so entitled attitude. And I had forgotten that he was nominated that year. CLIP: James Franco + Anne Hathaway He almost seemed to wanna screw the whole ceremony up and just slack his way through it. And then the Anne Hathaway real try hard, like I'm here to shine energy. And the excruciating combo of each of those non hosts hosting together to me is hard to rival. What about you guys? Naomi Fry: I mean that was rough. That was rough. [a] Michael Schulman: You know, one moment that's really burned in my mind from growing up in the nineties watching the Oscars as a sort of cringey moment is Letterman coming out in 1995 and starting with the Oprah Uma bit, CLIP: Oprah Uma bit where he was like, oh God. Yeah. [b][c] Vinson Cunningham: See? I still think that's funny, but Michael Schulman: you're the Alex Schwartz: only one Vinson Cunningham: I know. I love it. Michael Schulman: Would now be a good time for me to float my unified theory of Oscar hosting? Alex Schwartz: Yes. I mean, please don't sit on that. Don't I need it now? Michael Schulman: Don't hold back. I have been thinking about this for, uh, too long. I. I think the trick of it is that you have to be equal parts insider and outsider. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Michael Schulman: Because you have to be part of the industry and you have to have you, people in the room have to trust you enough that when you tell you, when you're roasting them, they know it's coming from a good place. Mm-hmm. And that you basically have reverence for the movies and. The Oscars as the ceremony, while also not, not being too in it, that you can't be irreverent. Take the piss out of it. Make fun of the movies, make fun of, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio sitting in the front row. And, and then like, if you're too outside, I think that's when you get like a Letterman who really doesn't have a sort of love of Hollywood in his bones. Uh, you know, he's all irreverence if you're coming at it and you just, you don't seem to care about. About the movies or about like this ridiculous thing called the Oscars, um, or if you're just not part of the industry, like jumping to the Golden Globes for a second. Mm-hmm. The comedian, Joe Coy, like super bombed a couple years ago, CLIP: Joe Koy really bad, and he came out and he started out by saying like. Uh, uh, none of you know who I am, which is, was kind of true. And so once he starts cracking jokes a about these movie stars, like, who are you to say this about me? Naomi Fry: Yeah. How dare he? Michael Schulman: Yeah. What Naomi Fry: basically, I mean, that was the, I'm ventriquerizing wise, the room. Michael Schulman: Whereas then Nikki Glaser came in and. People in the room, it was clear, kind of know and love Nikki gla. Mm-hmm. So she could like go hard on like Leonardo DiCaprio having like young girlfriends and it didn't seem like, who are, why are you attacking me? CLIP: Nikki Glaser Alex Schwartz: I also watched the recent Nikki Glaser hosting of the Golden Globes for a second time doing it, and you're, you're getting really in the faces of these people to see essentially if they can take a joke. And a lot of her jokes were low key and actually kind of cute. There's one about George Clooney where she asks if he can help her with her nespresso problem. There's maybe my personal favorite to the rock. Saying it's lucky that the paper wasn't nominated. Ha ha ha. That's not a personal joke, obviously. And you sort of see the rock take a second to get it, which is also a whole thing. Um, and then there are some harder hitting ones. But it's Michael, I think that's exactly right, that it's about that insider outsider aspect. You are the court jester so. Are you really wanting to be visier to the king or are you okay in that JE role and someone like Nikki Glaser is okay. In the jester role, the most famous example of it to me is Ricky Gervais, just going in and trying to slaughter everybody at the Golden Globes in 2020 when he made a point of having a beer with him on the podium. Yeah. And emphasizing that this was his fifth and final time hosting the Golden Globes and did not hold back. CLIP: Ricky Gervais Very much worth rewatching. There are Epstein jokes in there. Wow. If he, Ricky goes hard. Um, and I do think it's about reading the room, the mood of the room, and then also the culture at large. What do we wanna see in these interactions with our celebrities? Alex Schwartz: Michael, we want you to take us back. We want you to give us a history of the notable moments in Oscar's hosting history. Do you feel up to it? Sure. Can you take us there? Michael Schulman: Sure. Alex Schwartz: Great. Michael Schulman: Okay. Naomi Fry: What if he is like, no, Michael Schulman: no, no. Alex Schwartz: Then frankly, we all go home. We all go home. We whole episode. That's it. Michael Schulman: Here is a, uh, a brief history of the Oscar host. Um, so the Oscars started in 1929. For the first decade of the Oscars, they would be MCed mostly by whoever was the academy president, like Douglas Fairbanks or Frank Capra, who was the major figure in the, in the thirties. Sometimes it would be humorous. Shout out to, uh, Bob Bazooka Burns host of the 1938 Oscars. Um, Vinson Cunningham: what a great nickname. Michael Schulman: Uh, Bob Hope is the real transformative figure. Uh, he arrives in 1940 and he hosted on and off 19 times going through 1978. Whoa. That's Naomi Fry: crazy. That is crazy. Michael Schulman: And he, you know, he was a figure he'd come out of vaudeville and radio. He was sort of, of show business, but like a little bit of a, a showman outside of it as well. Uh, I brought in some of his, some like real, some of his, uh, one-liners over the years. Ooh, I love how these date. And yet you under, like, you still see the format that exists today. Um, so he, I warn you, these are some real groans. Um, alright. Uh, let's see, 1941. How about these secret ballots? This was the first year of secret ballots. Columnists have exerted every trick to discover the winners beforehand. And when the last envelope was sealed, Pricewaterhouse had to open it again to let Sidney kosky out. Alex Schwartz: What does that mean? Was he a small man? Who was Vinson Cunningham: Sidney Skokie? Michael Schulman: He was a co, uh, gossip columnist. Oh, Vinson Cunningham: there you go. Michael Schulman: Come on. 1942. How about that Air Raid Wednesday? That was no air raid. That was John Barrymore coming home from WC Field House. Vinson Cunningham: Wow. Alex Schwartz: Okay. Vinson Cunningham: He getting a little political. Michael Schulman: Oh, wait, wait. Here's another one. Okay. This was his last year in 1978. By now, this man is well into his seventies, he says, Naomi Fry: and not with the times, like not Michael Schulman: no. Does not fit Naomi Fry: the times. Michael Schulman: Says I haven't seen so much expensive jewelry go by since I watched Sammy Davis Jr's house sliding down cold water canyon. Alex Schwartz: Okay, that one good. This is really no, no. Improves. Michael Schulman: So it, you know, obviously Bob Hope, you know, he sort of defined this role as it moved from radio to television and became a big show. Um, but, you know, by the, by the seventies he was a nostalgic figure. He was a square, you know, he was a old, complete Alex Schwartz: square Michael Schulman: old man Alex Schwartz: who comes after Bob Hope. Michael Schulman: Finally, he is Alex Schwartz: gone. Michael Schulman: 1979, Bob Hope has hosted his last ceremony. They're bringing Johnny Carson, who then hosted five different years going into the eighties. Alex Schwartz: Did he do well? Michael Schulman: Yes. He's generally very well regarded as a host. You know, he, he was the man for the job. He was the sort of, you know, fractured time in America. He was the sort of unifying pop culture figure. Mm-hmm. Um, okay. A major turning point year. 1989. There was no host that year. Instead, the producer Alan Carr, uh, stages a an 11 minutes epic opening number. You may recall this opening number 'cause it has gone down in infamy, uh, featuring Rob Lowe singing with a woman. Dressed as Snow White and they, among many other things they do. A rendition of Proud Mary in a replica of the Coconut Grove. Whoa. With dancing cocktail tables. Whoa. Alex Schwartz: This just doesn't sound thought out. Michael Schulman: No, no. It Naomi Fry: was a, it was widely considered a disaster. Michael Schulman: Right? Like the worst Oscars ever. CLIP: Snow white singing Uh, you know, this ruined, this producer's, uh, life, Alan Carr, uh, he really, he really never worked again. No. Uh, you know, he, he, he had dreamt his whole life of producing the Oscars, and then he was, he was like an Icarus figure. It Naomi Fry: was Alex Schwartz: a Naomi Fry: one and done situation. Yeah. Alex Schwartz: If Michael Schulman: you had Alex Schwartz: spent your whole life dreaming of producing the Oscars, and that's what you came out with, maybe you should be doing something Michael Schulman: else. Yeah. No, it was so bad that the academy then formed a committee. To study what had gone wrong. Alex Schwartz: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: Truth and reconciliation Michael Schulman: Oscar. Exactly. Okay. And so then it was the Alex Schwartz: time for that. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Michael Schulman: And the next year, 1990 is a much more modernized ceremony. And the most significant change is that they brought in for the first time ever to host Billy Crystal. Mm. So he comes in, uh, in, in 1990. He, he steps out onto the stage. Then he went on to host nine times between that year and, and 2012 and nine times. I gotta agree with, and he sort of traded off with, um, with Whoopi Goldberg a bunch of times throughout the nineties. To me this was, The height of Oscar hosting. Nobody did it better than Billy Crystal. I still remember very, very clearly the first time I ever watched the Academy Awards, which was when I was, it was 1993. I was 11. I'll never forget his, his, uh, Howard's End spoof, which was hooray for Howard's End. And then he goes, and on an ounce of smut, it ain't called Howards, but they call it Howard End. CLIP: Howards End Naomi Fry: He is the ultimate figure of like, okay, here is this like funny Jewish man. He is not like a heartthrob in any way. He's a little bit weird looking, and yet here he is in this room, he made it and he's leading everyone by the nose basically, you know, he's like the master of ceremonies. And, uh, kind of last year when, when, when Conan hosted and for the first time, I was like, oh, okay. I feel like this is kind of like he, his, his vibe was a, for me was a bit of an heir to like the Billy Crystal year, or at least I had the same sense. Michael Schulman: it. Remember when he came on as Hannibal Lecter? Alex Schwartz: Yes. Yes. Michael Schulman: The year, the year, the Sounds of the Lambs. And then Whoopi came on as, uh, as Queen Elizabeth, the year of Elizabeth and Shakespeare. Love. Alex Schwartz: Good. Oh, right. Yeah, because Whoopi did a lot of hosting. Whoopi Goldberg did a lot of hosting in that. Time too. Michael Schulman: She was great. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, she was great. So cool. She Michael Schulman: says, I'm the African queen. Vinson Cunningham: Would you say, would you, because I think we're still laboring under this model, right? Mm-hmm. Of the sort of showman, as you say, sort of in between figure insider, outsider, who's funny, but can create omi, et cetera, but also is a kind of. Um, cabaret performer and who was gonna bring the sort of, um, triple threat of it all. Would you say that, like, would you say that Billy Crystal's like therefore the first modern host of the Oscars? Michael Schulman: Yeah, I mean, I think he was the defining figure of, of. Of that era in the way that Bob Hope had been. He sort of redefined the role, not changed it completely because he is a kind of Bob Hope like youngster. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Michael Schulman: But it was it, it didn't feel old fashioned. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: So when did the Billy Era end and did a new era come to replace it? I mean, Jimmy Kimmel is the one I remembered. Hosting. Remember it wasn't that long ago, but to me he, it was like 2020. It, it went on for an attorney, Jimmy Kimmel hosted for a bunch of years. Mm-hmm. We, we had to move on from the Billy era I, Michael Schulman: in between, there were a bunch of people, there was Steve Martin, there was Ellen De DeGeneres, who of Alex Schwartz: course did the famous selfie. Selfie. Do you guys remember the selfie? How Vinson Cunningham: could we forget the usy? she took that big selfie of all the stars and it became, I think, the most Tweeted photo or something like that. Yeah. Up till that time Michael Schulman: it was, yeah. The Alex Schwartz: thing went everywhere. Naomi Fry: But guys, can we talk about the slap? Remember the slap? We probably should. That was a big host moment. Yes. When Chris Rock hosted and Michael Schulman: no. He was not hosting, he was presenting, oh Naomi Fry: shit. He had hosted before. He had hosted before he Vinson Cunningham: was just hosted in 2005 and had this great bit about going to Magic Johnson Theater on hundred 25th Street and asking movie goers whether they had seen any, this was like the year of like million dollar baby ray, et cetera. And nobody at Magic Johnson Theater famously, you know, like in a, in this black neighborhood had seen anything except for maybe like, I think it was white chicks. And saw CLIP: Chris Rock it was really a, a funny like sendup of like, most people do not care about Yes. What's Michael Schulman: going on. He's, he's always gonna be my favorite because he was the, like for me, the, my, you know, the great standup comic of my youth and had a, a really. Less yucky way of sort of really sending the whole thing up, but was such a big star as a comedian that people still had to respect him and knew what he was up to. Um, so it is weird that, you know, then he comes back as presenter and. Is literally struck down for dope that he made. It's one of the cruel ironies of the job. Alex Schwartz: In a minute, what do we want from a host today? Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back. :: MIDROLL :: We've been talking about the Oscars hosts, hosts over the years. Hosts who have screwed up spectacularly, hosts who have pulled it off with a plum. We get a sense of what makes a good Oscars host in general. And I want us to broaden out a little bit because the host is of course, a wider figure in the culture. You know, I was thinking about someone like Letterman. He hosts the Oscars. It's a totally different platform. It's a different way of relating to the public. But then he goes back and hosts his own late night show. And now of course a host can mean. Many different things aside from that many hosts, hello, live in your ears, uh, frequently and or on your screens as podcasters, whatever it might be. Um, so the host is really a part of cultural life, I think in a very prominent way differently than it has been in the past. Do we have a unified theory of what we want from the host today? Or can we collectively work towards one? Vinson Cunningham: Well, I think this is so interesting because of what Michael said earlier about the origins of Bob Hope on on radio, and it does seem to me what you're, what you just alluded to, Alex, is like, we're headed back into a kind of radio age. The, the host has again become the, the podcast host. Even as we said, Conan in, in a certain way, this is his return to like big glitzy network TV after being a podcast host for many years. Some of the techniques, the sort of, uh, strange parasocial relationship that is formed under that sort of, you know, oral intimacy I think is so much now what we think of with the host. I, I think we're returning to an age where we really want somebody who's kind of sitting. Right next to us, somebody with whom we have a relationship. And I do think that that is slowly changing what we mean by host. We don't want someone like other worldly or totally apart, that there is a kind of intimacy that comes with that, um, that position. It can be for Ill, I don't think anybody wants Joe Rogan to be hosting the Oscars, but I do think there maybe Naomi Fry: some, some people do. Maybe. Vinson Cunningham: Maybe Naomi Fry: a lot of people do. Vinson Cunningham: Probably. Yeah. Good point. Maybe they do. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: I I do think that, you know. As that change, like the, the, these larger changes, all of a sudden podcasts are on Netflix. Um, I do think that this, this thing is becoming very like liquid. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. No, that, that makes sense. And I think, Vincent, what you're saying about the host, that we want someone who is like, that we listen to, that's in our ears. Right. Um, more than we want someone removed. I think that has always been kind of the case, I think with the Oscars. Host like that is, you know, the thing I said about Billy Crystal where watching it and I was like, Hey, I'm up there. I mean, I know I'm not like an older Jewish man, but like the idea of in your Alex Schwartz: soul, you might be Naomi Fry: in my soul, I'm, um, it's not like some glamor, you know, some like super glamorous figure. It's like our own. Avatar up there. In a sense, Alex Schwartz: one thing that does occur to me is I think in the modern culture of hosting, um, I'm specifically thinking of podcasts. There is really a cozy relationship between celebrity guests and the host. It happens on Rogan, it definitely happens on good Hang with Amy Poer, which of course is super, super popular and there's a sense of. Insiderness that nonetheless includes the audience. But I do think that people are clearly responding to and very positively 'cause these shows are really, really popular. The sense that they can just be a fly on the wall during a celebrity conversation that. Both has an aura of realness to it. Like, oh, these people are friends. They're hanging out. They're casually talking. It's not stilted in the way that it is. When a professional interviewer meets with a, an interview subject who they don't know personally, it is cozy, it's friendly. I feel like we're all hanging, but of course, anything that's super. Awkward or unapproved is not gonna be mentioned. 'cause that's not the point. The point is not to catch anyone out or make anyone feel uncomfortable or put their feet to the fire or even roast them as happens on an Oscar show. I think that we still want our zingers. To hit, but I wonder if this will change because in general, we are in this very, very cozy celebrity moment. Naomi Fry: I think like it's interesting to me, like someone like Nikki Glaser, who we mentioned before, who hosted the Globes very successfully, there is something about her presence. One thing I like about Nikki Glaser is that she has this combination of like, obviously a very self-assured. Roasty kind of like gives no fucks, will say what she wants to say, kind of vibe to her personality, but in another way there's something kind of vulnerable about her. You could tell that she is coming from the outside and that she's excited to be there. You could tell that she's like a little bit nervous, but that doesn't keep her from. Holding the feet to the fire. And I feel like watching her, I was like, okay, like where has this been? Maybe the fact that she's a woman too, and usually we do have a man. I mean, I mean there have been, of course women, Oscar hosts, Ellen Whoopi, you know, all that. But it's mostly a man, and recently it's mostly been a man, but I was like, huh, I feel like this might be. A way forward and kind of splitting the difference between like, oh, we're all like BFFs here and we're just gonna talk about how great we all are, whatever. And kind of like I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you like horrible questions that you're not prepared to answer. I'm gonna, you know, roast you so terribly that you're gonna like crawl out on your hands and knees. Alex Schwartz: Totally. What I thought Nikki Glaser did a really good job too. And it was notable to me that at the end of each roast she did, she really went at Kevin Hart for being short, for example, among other things. Mm-hmm. She also did mention him not hosting the Oscars. You know, she would say something like. But I love you so much. You know, I love you so much. Mm-hmm. I'm so, so sorry. And Michael Schulman: yeah, she warms it over. Alex Schwartz: She warms it over. So own Michael Schulman: smiling still. Alex Schwartz: Yes. As she moves on. Mm-hmm. And so she's really keeping it copacetic with the people in the room. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: And she did straddle that line between being brutal and being funny and friendly. I think maybe my favorite joke of hers was the last joke where she, uh, she thanked Steve Martin and Martin Short for being there. I proving to people that no matter how much success you've had, you still need more money in Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and. They were laughing and they liked it. Yeah. So, yeah. I'm, do you guys want more of that or do you, would you ever wanna go back to Rick Raves at the 2020 Golden Globes, who is so acidic and aggressive that the camera keeps cutting to the horrified celebrities in the audience, including at least very memorably to me, Tom Hanks, who is just grimacing, grimacing throughout. Do you want more discomfort or are you happy with a situation where we get to have our. Cake and eat it too, where we get to have our laughs and and move on. Vinson Cunningham: Well, I think it totally matters what, when it is and what time we're talking about. I think we want somebody who's actually responsive to how people feel at a given time, whether it's just about the movies or about the politics of the moment or about the way that the sort of, I don't know, like elite class from which these people come are, are like sort of behaving in the rest of the culture. I think all this stuff matters. Yeah. Or we keep assigning it meaning, because for whatever reason, people still, like, on a mass level, love movies, like cinema is still something that brings people together to say something really corny. But, um, what we do with movies and with works of art that are like popular in nature is like, we talk about them with our friends. Like they create discourse. They create a kind of weather system around them, and we want somebody to kind of give that, like replicate that, like give that back to us. And so it depends, I think it depends totally on the mood of like. How we want that person to be or show up. But I do think that we want to know that however, this person is, is not just a dis, like a preordained decision, like what the industry wants the person to be like, but that they are on some level being responsive to a mood that we all feel. Michael Schulman: Mm. It occurs to me too, America's watching, and they know that these are rich, glamorous, beautiful people being celebrated. There's something inherently ridiculous and, um, and, and, and sort of gross about it. And, and, and so you need someone to like, acknowledge that and take the piss out. Yeah. Because it's not a, it's like, as much as the Oscars hold themself up as this, like vaunted important, you know, tradition, you know, like their Buckingham Palace like. You know, they're also absurd. That's why I love them. Alex Schwartz: And so is Buckingham Palace Michael Schulman: and so is bucking. Exactly. It's like these things only have, the value in them is only, uh, they're like Tinker Bell. It's like they, they're only important to the extent that we will clap for them and believe in them Alex Schwartz: quite right. This has been critics at large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kuman. Alexis Quadra composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost. You can find every episode of critics at large at New yorker.com/critics. We will see you next week.