Alex Schwartz: This is Critics at Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz. Naomi Fry: I'm Naomi Fry. Vinson Cunningham: And I'm Vinson Cunningham. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Let me paint you a picture Alex Schwartz: Mm, please Vinson Cunningham: It's June, 1975. The colors are bright. The pants are bells at the bottom. School's out. Naomi Fry: School's out for summer. Vinson Cunningham: Damn right. It's hot. The height of summer. What are you gonna do? You're gonna go to the movies. And what are you gonna see? What about a little film called Jaws? CLIP: Jaws - trailer Vinson Cunningham: "Jaws," in case you haven't heard of it, it was a big hit, okay? It's often said to be the first modern blockbuster. Directed by Steven Spielberg, the most commercially successful director in history. After the success of Jaws, he goes on to make Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., Jurassic Park, the Indiana Jones movies. The list goes on, and friends, you know it. Guys, what are some of the hallmarks? If we're talking blockbuster, what are the hallmarks of the blockbuster as a genre? What does the term conjure in your minds? Alex Schwartz: Big action, posters everywhere, lines, lines out the door. Lines. Which I think was not a phenomenon until Jaws, even. Naomi Fry: Um- Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Enormous promotion. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Naomi Fry: The promotion is m- perhaps as important as, as the movie itself. Huge box office take. Vinson Cunningham: Fast pace, maybe an explosion here or there. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Definitely. Alex Schwartz: Definitely. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: There's the blockbuster for you. It's been decades though since Spielberg had a big, new summer Jawsy hit, and that's put a big question mark around his new release, Disclosure Day. CLIP: Disclosure Day - trailer Vinson Cunningham: The question is, can it excite audiences in the way his earlier films did? Now, we have a partial answer to this. It's already been named his first summer blockbuster since Minority Report 24 years ago, if you can believe it. Uh, but still, the question persists, what is the blockbuster today? Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Spielberg is re-entering this field, and he's tried to get back there before, but as you say, Vinson, it's been 24 years. Not quite as long as the Knicks' run since their last championship, but we're, we're looking at a big pause between- Naomi Fry: A generation ... Alex Schwartz: a generation commercial, from a huge commercial summer hit to another huge commercial summer hit. And there's a lot riding for the movie business on this question, and then for the culture sense of itself as large. Are movies still important? Are people going to the c- the cinema? Still, still a thing? Are the youth like we were? All of those questions, those big cultural questions, are coming up through Disclosure Day. Vinson Cunningham: Big questions, big movies, so buckle up, because today we're talking blockbusters, the huge Spielberg hits that invented and then perfected this form, how Spielberg picks up on those in Disclosure Day, and, you know, we're hot off the huge success of films like Backrooms and Obsession, a very different kind of movie that younger audiences especially are responding to. I'm wondering whether this old idea of the blockbuster still exists today, still matters, at least in the Spielberg mold. That's today on Critics at Large. Steven Spielberg's blockbusters. ________________ Alex Schwartz: You know what my first encounter with Steven Spielberg was? It was at Camp Ramah my Jewish summer camp. And there was a, I think it was a rainy day. There was a presentation on important American Jewish cultural figures. Naomi Fry: I mean, I was just gonna say, and I know I always say this, but Steven Spielberg is truly, truly the pride of the Jews. Alex Schwartz: Well, someone showed up dressed as Albert Einstein. There was a second, can't remember, and then there was a counselor wearing tan shorts, like a safari outfit- Mm ... which later I would understand referred to Jurassic Park. Who was that man? I didn't know who Steven Spielberg was. I had no idea. I just knew, know me as you say, that he was the pride of the Jews. There we go. Naomi Fry: He, he was, he was the pride of the Jews. I'm trying to think of my first encounter with Spielberg. I think it might have been, I remember being on the beach with my sister, definitely not on Martha's Vineyard, where Jaws was, I, I later realized was shot, but on, on the West Coast, and my sister telling me, "You know this is the beach where they shot Jaws." And I kind of knew ambiently what Jaws was. That's great. Mm-hmm. That it was about a killer, you know, shark. And, uh, and I did not go in the water that day. Yeah, that's not cool. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I mean, Naomi Fry: it's Alex Schwartz: very cool- ... but it's also not cool. Naomi Fry: Anyway, but, but I think that was my first encounter with Spielberg. Making me not literally not go in the water just like after you watched Psycho you’re not going to go in the shower. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. For me it was, for me it's definitely, like, the sort of great, like, miracle year, or one of the great miracle years of his career where in '93, both Jurassic Park and Schindler's List come out. I mean, I, I was just the right age to be totally freaked out by, but riveted by Jurassic Park. Every single kid I knew had a Jurassic Park shirt. I still remember the logo for the movie just because- Mm-hmm ... I can see it on, you know, against the background of a black shirt. And like- Oh, Alex Schwartz: yeah. Naomi Fry: I saw one at a vintage store just yesterday. Vinson Cunningham: Really? Ooh. Naomi Fry: Isn't that crazy? Vinson Cunningham: It's a great, it's a great shirt. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Iconic. Naomi Fry: But Vinson, there was a Spielberg movie which famously you did not see, as we discovered when we chatted about it. Yes. And we were shocked to discover this, uh, this horrible blind spot in your- ... in your cultural diet. Vinson Cunningham: Shameful. Alex Schwartz: Well, all of us have blind spots. Well- Let me step in- No, of course ... to defend my, my friend and colleague- Of Naomi Fry: course ... here. No, no. Absolutely. I have many, many, many blind spots. Yeah. So the idea of kind of Vinson's blind spot made us think about all of our respective Spielberg blind spots. And so in preparation for this episode, each of us watched one of these blind spot Spielberg films, and we're gonna talk about them a little bit and discuss them kind of leading up to disclosure day. So Vinson, do you wanna start? Vinson Cunningham: Absolutely. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Well, here's the thing. Naomi Fry: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: I'd never seen Jaws, but boy did I know what it's about. Naomi Fry: Yeah. It's one of those things, right? Alex Schwartz: You knew to whom the jaws belonged. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. I knew to whom the jaws belonged. Mm-hmm. I knew- I knew that there was a big-ass shark and that that wasn't a great thing, okay? And that it was scary. I knew a lot about the movie before I saw it. Um, but news alert, I liked Jaws. Jaws is good. Alex Schwartz: Jaws is Vinson Cunningham: awesome. This is, this is the news- Jaws- This is the news I'm bringing to our, our listeners ... Jaws Naomi Fry: is a great movie. I, you know, watched it n- not, not just, was not just frightened by the idea of it as, like, a five-year-old when my sister, like, you know, freaked me out about not going in the water because Jaws will get me. Um, but later actually watched it, you know, in my teens and, and liked it. Yeah. But then didn't watch it for many years. Returned to it during the pandemic, um, during lockdown, and I remember how much it struck me then that it was a movie about COVID. You know? Uh, the, the, the, the conflict between kind of, like, private enterprise and, you know- That's right individual decision-making, and, um, kind of, like, the greater good, right? Right. And, and the kind of, like, binding of that against, against kind of, like, a force that comes from the outside and terrorizes a small town- That's right ... in this case. Yeah. Uh, but I was like, "Wow, this is really, this is really deep." Do, do you wanna, like, give us a little synopsis? Vinson Cunningham: Sure. Jaws stars Roy Scheider. He's the police chief of a town called Amity, and the, uh, police chief has a problem, which is that there has been a, a rash of shark attacks, uh, right before, right a- r- right around this time of year. Mm-hmm. Right before the Fourth of July,and to your point, Naomi, And so, uh, the first half of the movie is setting up this sort of problem, this p- commerce versus public safety versus economic, uh, advancement, et cetera.... the mayor's like, "No way, man. We're not shutting down." CLIP: Jaws First big beach day happens, and predictably- Naomi Fry: Chomp Vinson Cunningham: There's blood in the water. The police chief, Brody, goes out to sea with a marine biologist played by Richard Dreyfuss, uh, who is, I think, just so good. Naomi Fry: Also great outfits. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh, Dreyfuss is wearing a raglan, uh, sweatshirt out on the boat- Mm ... this beauti- beautifully- Naomi Fry: Yes ... Vinson Cunningham: I, I just love this gray sweatshirt. It's so true. Um, and Robert Shaw plays this, uh, briny professional shark hunter, uh, named Quint, and they go out on a boat, the three of them, in this sort of r- a, a radical miniaturization of the, the, the, the crew in something like Moby Dick. It is, it's, for me, it inaugurates this, this film, Jaws, which had a budget of $9 million and then had almost $500 million in box office. Uh, at the time was the highest grossing film ever. It was the most successful movie that had ever been made. Uh, what it inaugurates for me, in the other Spielberg, Spielberg movies that I've seen and enjoyed that we'll talk about, is this, this primacy of knowledge. What do people, the mass of people, deserve to know, and what does that knowledge prompt us to do? This happens a lot in Spielberg. It's like a, a sort of- Naomi Fry: Yeah Vinson Cunningham: a cognitive or sort of, um, informational or political or a commercial elite, and trying to figure out what they owe to the masses of people in terms of sharing a kind of knowledge. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think that's something that would be great for us and for listeners also, honestly, to keep in mind, um, over the course of the episode, because I think that is one of Spielberg's biggest concerns. You just hit the nail on the head. He's concerned with civics. I just wanna come back, if I can, for one second- Please to the movie making of Jaws itself, because it's one of the great movie making stories. Um, our colleague, Michael Schulman, has a great chapter on Jaws in his book, Oscar Wars, the podcast that I'm very into, that I always love talking about. Um, What Went Wrong: Moviemaking podcast has a great episode about it. But what is kind of crazy about Jaws in retrospect is that everyone thought it would be a big flop, and no one expected it to work. The studio, Universal, had already purchased this novel, which was forthcoming- Mm-hmm ... to adapt. Then the novel comes out and is a huge hit, so they need to move up the shooting, like, from a year and a half to basically two months. They have to cast this thing immediately. That all is going on. The technology of the sharks was a complete mess, and I really encourage people, if you like stories about just, like, disasters, basically the movie Jaws was a disaster too. They could not get these huge sharks to operate. Mm-hmm. They couldn't do it, and that failure led to the genius of Jaws- Yeah because Spielberg came to realize, and Spielberg was only 26, which was really mind-blowing to me, but he came to realize that not showing the audience the shark would be more terrifying than showing these big animatronic sculptures of sharks that they kept trying and failing to operate. He came to this Hitchcockian view of things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Nomi, I think you referred to the shower of Psycho before. I mean, that's, that's it. Yeah. I think Spielberg quite literally said he wanted people to have that to, to feel about going to the beach like people felt about going into the shower after Psycho. Naomi Fry: Yeah, and I think this connects back, this links back to this issue of knowledge, where it's like- The most dangerous thing is being oblivious, in a sense. So like, these people on the beach, these happy fools, there is that water. It looks so inviting, hot summer day, you know? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: And- Vinson Cunningham: What could be better? Naomi Fry: What could be better? And yet under that water, that shark we don't see. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that as, again, as you said, this is something that repeats again and again in Spielberg's movies. What don't we know, and what danger lurks in that which we don't know? Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Totally. So when we talk about Jaws inventing this form of the blockbuster, there are a few things we’re talking about. The first is promotion, it seems obvious to us now, but at the time, 1.8 million dollars was spent on promoting jaws which was huge, because the studio was trying to ride the high of the successful novel, and also because it figured out really quickly that people loved this movie, people were spilling their popcorn screaming at this movie, the studio was like this is a thing, let’s spend money to make it more of a thing, There were television spots promoting the film, all these things that seem super obvious to us now that were not so obvious at the time. The summertime release, another, like, no duh thing that actually was quite a duh because most big releases had happened in the winter and the spring, and suddenly you get summertime, and wow, kids are out of school. Teenagers wanna go see this movie. The teen market is huge. Let's market movies to teens. That begins there. Merchandising. Guys, there were Jaws T-shirts, there were Jaws plastic cups. There were Jaws record albums. There were Jaws beach towels, bicycle bags- Nud beach towels ... blankets- ... costume jewelry, toys. And then finally, I would say the, the other big, big element that makes a, a blockbuster and seems obvious to us now, but was invented by this, was mass distribution, because up till that point, studios were still testing movies in certain markets, rolling them out slowly, and with Jaws, the movie was just an event. It was released wide. It was everywhere all at once. Vinson Cunningham: Alex, you had a, a Spielberg film that you hadn't seen, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Alex Schwartz: Oh, yeah. Um, I had never seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind. This is true. This is Spielberg's movie from 1977, and science fiction and the idea of science fiction and aliens had never totally been my thing, and I say had because it's an amazing movie. I think, like, this is gonna be the theme. We each are watching a, a known minted Spielberg classic movie, like- It's pretty good surprise, they're awesome. But in a way, I kind of think I like our ... I mean, I'm anticipating Nomi's reaction to her choice, and maybe she'll have hated it, and I'll be completely wrong in, in my prediction here. But I do think that, and then I'll talk about Close Encounters, but I do think that this is something that has dogged Spielberg forever, where because he became such a commercial filmmaker so young- Mm-hmm because Jaws ended up being this huge surprise hit, and because then he repeated it with Close Encounters, and then he blasts out of the park with Jurassic Park, people Like to think of him as, you know, "Oh, he's like the popcorn guy." And then you watch his movies, and you're like, "These are amazing. What a great filmmaker." What is amazing about this movie is that it's a really human movie, even though it's about aliens. It's something is going on in the skies. People all around the world are noticing weird stuff. In India, a whole group of people is ecstatically singing a melody. And when they're asked, "Where did you hear this sound?" They all point with their forefinger, whoop, to the skies. Um, Francois Truffaut is running around in the guise of Lacombe, the character he plays. I mean, guys, there's an amazing Truffaut performance accompanied by a wonderful Bob Balaban as his assistant translating from the French. Guys, just love it. Love it. That duo would have watched a whole spinoff about that kooky duo. They're trying to figure out what's going on, and in the middle of all of this, Richard Dreyfuss, who here is, um, playing a guy called Roy. Naomi Fry: Roy Neary. Alex Schwartz: Roy Neary. Who works as a telephone lineman and lives with his wife and three kids, has an encounter, a close encounter, with a UFO and is forever changed by it. A group of people in Muncie, Indiana, see this thing pass nearby. Some of them end up, like Roy does, with sunburn over parts of their faces. Um, they come away with a vision of a kind of mound sort of chopped off at the top. And something I love about this movie, the movie's about obsession, um, and about being haunted by something that you can't let go of. What I love about the mo- one thing I love about the movie is that Spielberg pay, pays really close attention to the human cost of wanting to know more. Alex Schwartz: There's a depiction of this totally chaotic family, which I really loved. I love the honesty about how much chaos there can be- It's so '70s ... in a family with, with kids. Naomi Fry: It's so, like, '70s divorce co- this movie is. So, Alex Schwartz: so Naomi Fry: much so. CLIP: Close Encounters Like, he's making a fucking mess in the living room trying to create this, like, you know, kind of like weird, like, mountain that he keeps envisioning in his mind. He makes it out of mashed potatoes, then he makes it out of dirt in the middle of the living room. Like, the family is gone. The family is, like, destroyed in the name of this, uh, kind of seeking. Yes. And I think it's also... I mean, obviously we also know, you know, whoever watched The Fabelmans, like, you know- Vinson Cunningham: This is autobiographical for Naomi Fry: Spielberg ... this is autobiographical. You know, Spielberg himself was a child of divorce, et cetera. But there, but there is also something that is so, um, you know, post '60s about this movie, about, like, this is a person who wants something different. and the family is collapsing because of that, for, like, better or worse, you know, for this idea of kind of a self-fulfillment- Yeah ... uh, that has been wrought by- ... by societal changes. Alex Schwartz: I love that take, Noemie. You know? Yeah, that's so smart. Yeah, exactly. Oh, Dad's having his midlife crisis- Yeah ... so we all have to... So the family breaks up. Vinson Cunningham: Now everybody's gonna talk about aliens now. Alex Schwartz: Exactly. Um, and then of course, there are the, there's the aliens of it. These are Spielbergian aliens, and by that I mean kind- cute CLIP: Mm-hmm Alex Schwartz: Not as cute as E.T., but cute aliens who want to make contact, who are benevolent figures. It has the stuff, Vincent, that you mentioned that's gonna be important for Disclosure Day also, where there's a government body that doesn't want people to know things. Yeah. It's trying to keep people in the dark. But there is a benevolence and a hopefulness to this movie. Naomi Fry: It's so great. It's a wonderful movie because I th- I think what you're saying, Alex, similarly to you, and I think you know this, I'm not a sci-fi person. I'm not a fantasy person. I'm a realism person, canonically. And, uh, and yet this is one of my favorite movies because it's a movie about people. Vinson Cunningham: And just in keeping with our, our theme here, uh, Close Encounters, it's no Jaws, but it does really well at the box office. He made it for less than $20 million. It makes more than 300 million. Yeah. It's, uh- Pretty good ... you know, this is Spielberg in his, at the crest, one of the many crests of his career. Naomi Fry: One of the many crests, and onto another crest. Alex Schwartz: The crest. Naomi Fry: Which i- the crest. The crest of crests. Vinson Cunningham: It's the crest of crests. Naomi Fry: Uh, which was my blind spot. I shockingly had never seen Jurassic Park from 1993. Mm-hmm. And, uh, my co-hosts were shocked and dismayed to hear that- ... that was the case, and so I hastened to rectify. I'm so excited. And excited. I'm so excited. I hastened to rectify- Yeah ... uh, this, and, uh, I watched, um, I watched Jurassic Park for the first time, uh- great movie. I was glued to my seat, I was riveted. We have these three scientists, Alan Grant, played by Sam Neill. We have, we have Dr. Sattler, Ellie Sattler, played by Laura Dern, his, his colleague, and we have the, the kind of like cemented good looks mathematician, Ian Malcolm, played by Jeff Goldblum, and they are chosen to go to this new theme park that is being kept heavily under wraps. where scientists have managed to recreate dinosaurs. CLIP: Jurassic Park It's once again that thing about like- The dangers of knowledge and what is done with knowledge that is hidden for many and used by few, There's a kind of like scientific, and it's actually kind of like I felt was very prescient about these kind of like Elon Musky type figures who are like, "I am God. I will create this like my own wonderland and nothing will go wrong." Of course. Yeah. And then of course, when there's that hubristic impulse, all hell breaks loose, and it's a great movie. Vinson Cunningham: Did you have a favorite among the dinosaurs? Naomi Fry: Okay. I thought the raptors were super scary. Vinson Cunningham: Yes. Naomi Fry: Like, I was like- Yeah "Okay, I don't wanna tangle with them." I kept being like- ... "Why? Why?" Yeah. "Don't do it." Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Um, I liked the sick triceratops. We like, Alex Schwartz: we like them sick. Naomi Fry: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Vinson Cunningham: The sicker the better when it comes to dinosaurs, I, I would imagine. Naomi Fry: Do you guys remember, um, do you guys remember like watching Jurassic Park, like in the, in the- Oh, of course. Alex Schwartz: At Lara Fox's home, uh, on her kitchen TV in I wanna say 1997. Yeah. I had not been allowed to see this. Mm. I was mesmerized, absolutely mesmerized, and I didn't understand I was watching something that had grossed $1.058 billion. $1 Naomi Fry: billion. Alex Schwartz: I mean, my lord did people love this film, and, Again, what Spielberg is so good at is bringing the human to the fore in these extreme sci-fi kind of circumstances, and Jurassic Park does that in an amazing way. I remember the dinosaurs when I think of Jurassic Park, but what I really think about is Laura Dern and Jeff Goldblum and the people and how they faced this situation. Mm. And that's what makes a great blockbuster. Vinson Cunningham: In a minute, from the classics to the present, Disclosure Day. Critics at Large from The New Yorker will be right back. :: MIDROLL:: AMERICA IN SONG CALLOUT CLIP: E.T. Can we talk E.T. for a second? Alex Schwartz: We can always talk E.T. Naomi Fry: I watched E.T. on the plane a mere few days ago. Oh, man. Alex Schwartz: And Naomi Fry: I was crying as if it was- Yeah ... 1982 and I was watching it for the first time. Alex Schwartz: That's right. That's right. Naomi Fry: That's right. Alex Schwartz: That's right. I mean, I'm gonna just come out and say it, E.T. is a movie I'm afraid to re-watch- because I don't know if I can go to that place emotionally- Yeah ... right now or ever. I will. This episode will inspire me, and I'll probably be sobbing within a number of days along to E.T. But- Hmm ... the emotional nakedness of that wrinkled little alien- ... and that shriveled up little old man baby- Naomi Fry: That little guy Alex Schwartz: and the abandoned children who care for him Yes ... is the most- Naomi Fry: Again, the children of divorce ... Alex Schwartz: the children of divorce. Naomi Fry: That American scourge. What happened to the American family, my friends? Alex Schwartz: the way that E.T. has been baked into the culture, I think it's still there. Growing up, not even just with E.T. itself, but with the commercials for the Universal Studios ride, E.T. ride- CLIP: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: all I wanted to do in my one life on earth was to get in that little bicycle ride and go. Vinson Cunningham: Go. Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Go up. Vinson Cunningham: Silhouetted against the moon. Alex Schwartz: Amblin. Send me up. Send me up. Vincent, have you seen E.T. recently? Mm-hmm. What's your feeling about it? Vinson Cunningham: Again, very, it's a very emotional film. Uh, again, uh, Spielberg's autobiographical penchant, you know, it's sort of based on an emo- uh, an imaginary friend he created after the divorce of his parents, so he's always tugging at his own heartstrings first. CLIP: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, and, and thereby tugging at ours. Um, but yeah, I just remember it as, um, maybe it was m- I mean, be- between, between E.T. and ALF. I'm not sure which one was my first- ... engagement with the, the, the, the sitcom ALF, which, uh, centered around a, a furry puppet who was also an alien, right? Naomi Fry: Of course. Yeah, he came from Melmac. There Vinson Cunningham: you go. Never forget Melmac. Never forget. These were, these were my first aliens. And, and, and we- ALF Naomi Fry: was sexy, though. Vinson Cunningham: That's, I don't even know- I'm sorry, what? ... why, but it's so you. Alex Schwartz: What? Vinson Cunningham: Because he's so hirsute, because Alex Schwartz: he's- He has like a, he has like a little, you know- Vinson Cunningham: A kind of- ... a little Alex Schwartz: hair tuft that- Yeah. Naomi Fry: He's hir- hirsute, and he's a little mean. I mean, Vinson Cunningham: Nomi likes tortured, troubled- I mean- ... Alex Schwartz: chest hair. The next, in one second we're about to hear that Alf had some innate good looks, and Brenda's not gonna know what to do Vinson Cunningham: with it. I, I've been trying not to say it. Okay. So sorries. Apologies to everyone. Whereas, whereas Alex Schwartz: E.T. is merely heartbreakingly cute. Naomi Fry: Exactly. Vinson Cunningham: Yes. Alex Schwartz: He's- Okay. Naomi Fry: Yes ... Alex Schwartz: you know. We brought it back. Um- We brought it home. Vinson Cunningham: There you go. There you go. Well, I think that just the, even the mention, the brief mention of E.T. is a great way to get now onto Disclosure Day. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, which is in theaters now, doing very well as we mentioned before. Uh, who would like to offer a synopsis of Disclosure Day? Naomi Fry: I feel like we have only one woman- Alex Schwartz: I'm kinda feeling it today, guys ... for Vinson Cunningham: this job. You got it. Yes. I'm feeling it. Yes. I see the, I see the spark. Alex Schwartz: I'm feeling it. We got Josh O'Connor, my man Josh O'Connor, as a rogue. Vinson Cunningham: Of course. Alex Schwartz: Josh O'Connor the rogue has been working at a sinister corporation whose name I wanna say is Hendricks, even though that's not its name. Vinson Cunningham: It's close to that. Alex Schwartz: What is it? It's like Naomi Fry: Wembex? What is it? Wembex. Alex Schwartz: What? Wen- Naomi Fry: Wen- Windex ... Alex Schwartz: Wembex? He's been working at Windex. Sorry. Wardex. Wardex. Rolex, Windex. No, it's Wardex. Wardex. I, I just love thinking about how they workshopped to find the appropriately evil name. Wardex has some information it doesn't want the people to know, namely, as we find out very quickly, that aliens have made contact with the human race. The word is not out, but fortunately, Josh O'Connor, whose name in this movie is Daniel Kellner, has fortunately lots of little files that have all this evidence on them. He's stolen them from Wardex, and now he's trying to get away. Meanwhile, over in Kansas City, we have Emily Blunt as Margaret Fairchild, a weather woman, and- Yeah ... she one day sees this cardinal pop into her window and begin speaking every language on the globe. And this is because the aliens have made contact with her, and these two need to find each other. They are the pieces in the puzzle that will allow for disclosure day, which is going to be the day when Daniel Kellner lets the whole world know that this has been going on. The nemesis of this movie is Noah Scanlan, an absolutely unrecognizable Colin Vinson Cunningham: Firth. It took me a Alex Schwartz: minute. Yeah. He has a little device that looks like a mezuzah- and he likes to hold it. Love the Vinson Cunningham: mezuzah. Alex Schwartz: And that evil mezuzah lets him drop in- ... on other people and speak to them inside their own heads. And it's, it's a chase. It's a chase. Are the good guys gonna be able to reach the global population before the bad guys can stop them? Because this movie has a very clear ethics, which is people deserve the right to know. Naomi Fry: And something that is very painful is the mistreatment of these aliens that is being revealed. These poor a- aliens who seem kind of, you know, frail and sympathetic, they are very similar in appearance to aliens we've seen in S- Spielberg before, E.T. and, and Close Encounters, kind of, uh- Vinson Cunningham: Elfin, uh- ... Naomi Fry: Wemby-like Vinson Cunningham: bodies. Well, they are, they're Wemby- Wemby-like Naomi Fry: They're Wemby-like ... per- perhaps, perhaps slightly shorter- ... but, but, you know, kind of like- Mini, mini little Alex Schwartz: Wembies. Naomi Fry: Um, that is, that is very painful, and in fact, you know, this also reminds me of Schindler's List. You know, there, there is- Mm ... I think in Spielberg's work, and this might be, like, the, the Jewishness or I don't know, I think there is this kind of fear or pain around the idea of, um- Abusing or repressing a more vulnerable- Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm Naomi Fry: race or group or, or whatever you wanna call it. I don't know. I mean, in terms of whether we liked this movie or not- Alex Schwartz: Well, did, well, did, did you? Let's start there. Naomi Fry: Um, I will say the first 45 minutes or so, I was like, "Fuck, this is great." Mm-hmm. Like, Spielberg is so back. Like, this is amazing. Emily Blunt is amazing. Emily Blunt is so good. She's so good. She was great. She was great. She's funny- She is insane ... and she's, like- She's so good ... she's so talented, and she does a, she does a great job, and it's just, like, very gripping, you know? You're like, "What's gonna happen? Oh, my God." It, it kinda starts in media res. Um, y- i- i- immediately you're kind of tossed into this world of danger and intrigue, and you don't totally understand what's happening. And so I was gripped, and I was really enjoying it, and I was like, "Yes." Spielberg is like, yes, he's doing his blockbuster thing- Yeah ... where it's, like, great performances, really well-written, but also, like, really taut and, and kind of, like, action-packed. But then it started... I felt like there was a lot of that was superfluous, I guess. Mm. I was like, there was the whole kind of, like, story with, like, Jane, the, the Eve Hewson girlfriend character, her faith and her, like, like, coming up as a, as a nun or aspirant nun- Mm ... and, like, those theological questions that kind of, like, I felt like weighed down the, the kind of the, the main crux of the whole thing. Mm-hmm. I felt like Colman Domingo, you know, great actor, love him, but I was like, how has he suddenly become, like, the new Morgan Freeman, you know? This kind of, like, soft-eyed- Yeah ... you know, kind of, like, wise Black man who knows everything and can lead us to the... It was, like, a little much- Yeah ... I felt like. And also just, like, on the level of plot, there, there was a lot going on. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Couldn't we have, like, whittled this down a little bit more?" Vinson Cunningham: What'd you think, Alex? Alex Schwartz: I think I appreciated this movie more than I enjoyed it. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Um, I appreciated a few things. I appreciated being at a movie theater on opening weekend with a bunch of people around me. Yes. That experience. Fun. Fun. Uh, I appreciated the chases. Enjoyed them very much. Bursting through buildings. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: A nice train chase sequence, which feels old-fashioned, just the fact that a train was involved, but trains still ride among us every day. Mm-hmm. They're out there. Use them. Good. Big train sequence. Big train sequence, jumping around on trains. Um, love Josh O'Connor and Emily Blunt, and yet I felt that this movie, I don't want to say it felt formulaic because it's, uh, it's not Spielberg exactly painting by numbers. I think it's Spielberg revisiting many of his obsessions and themes with a huge sincerity to him. CLIP: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: You know, we, we did an episode on earnestness, listeners may recall, and this movie would fit right in there. This movie deals, treats this question of, uh, human life and extra human life with great earnestness, and religion with great earnestness. There's, a nun has a very prominent role. It's the second big movie in recent memory. The other one is, um, Paul Thomas Anderson's One Battle After Another, where a nunnery, a convent, is treated as a place of refuge and political resistance. Mm-hmm. That was kind of interesting to me that that idea came up for both of these filmmakers. But all that said, I just didn't feel the human element in the way that I really want to- Hmm in a movie, and particularly in a Spielberg movie. And I felt Spielberg trying for it, but I just wasn't touched by it, and the intellectual ideas about what it would be like to make contact with another species, I feel that Spielberg has treated another more than species. I feel that Spielberg has treated more interestingly before, which is itself interesting to me because Spielberg has given interviews lately in which he makes it very clear that he does believe that alien life exists- Mm-hmm and that he would like to meet it. This is all coming from a very real place for him. Um, Vincent, what did you think? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, it's interesting because, um- I do think that it's not really tugging at the heartstrings, partially because to me it's, of the Spielberg films that I've seen, it seems to be the most sort of conceptual and abstract. CLIP: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: I think it's trying to sort of rearrange, again, our society and see it through, like, the pane of a, a different window. It reminds me of a poem by Robert Hayden. I might have even mentioned it on this podcast. He has this poem, it's called American Journal, and it's from, it c- it's from the point of view of an alien, uh, visiting America. Can I read a stanza? Alex Schwartz: Of course. Please. Vinson Cunningham: And so the poem is, as the title suggests, it's a journal by this alien who has been sent by his overlords to come and sort of take notes on America. He's like a, he's like an alien, uh, Tocqueville or something like that. "Crowds gathering in the streets today for some reason obscure to me. Noise and violent motion. Repulsive physical contact. Sentinels, pigs I heard them called, with flailing clubs. Rage and bleeding and frenzy and screaming. Machines wailing unbearable decibels. I fled lest vibrations of the brutal scene do further harm to my metabolism, already overtaxed." Mm. It's this, this, this being who- Naomi Fry: It's about UFC at the White House. Vinson Cunningham: There you go. Just, like, of confused by American bloodlust and dynamism. But also, as we see throughout the, uh, poem, we kinda come to understand that the alien overlords are also kind of softly authoritarian, and he's, like, sort of also attracted, this alien, to, I don't know, s- this, some, like, sort of charisma of the barbaric Americans or something like that. Um, and we get to see through this film, too, you know, there is this, moment when the, I don't know, uh, slight spoiler. There's a m- a moment when the tapes are finally released and there is a newscaster- Mm who is- Seeing them concurrently with them being shown to people on television. And she's kind of almost crying, and she's saying, "It's just like, this just calls into question our place." And you can tell she means this existentially and, like, what is a human being and what are they for? But also, as they show these scenes of, like, you know, alien, aliens being whatever, like, operated upon or, like, proto-waterboarded or whatever, you know, uh, uh, what is our place? Like, what, what, what are we? What- that we would do this to, you know? So there's all these... I think that question comes so much to the fore in this film that it almo- it overrides, and I think purposely, any human drama. Vinson Cunningham: Which is, to me, plays against the Spielbergian thing. I don't think it's ever trying to make us cry or weep or feel for a human being or, or even the aliens, really. It's, it's, it's, it's a thought experiment where the existence of these beings and their sort of the unmasking of this fact, I don't know, creates this grand, like, counterfactual. So I was kind of riveted by that. I thought it was really funny. So I think I may... I, I think, and I'm still working through this. I saw it last night. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Um, I, I think I liked it, but I'm still thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. When we're back, the state of the blockbuster and Steven Spielberg's legacy. That's in a minute on Critics at Large from the New Yorker :: MIDROLL:: So we've been talking about the state of the blockbuster, and, you know, this, this great, I don't know what you call it, monster, uh, Frankensteinian behemoth that maybe Spielberg created. Does Disclosure Day, maybe its box office success, maybe its actual existence as an artifact, does it make you think differently about where this form, the blockbuster, is headed? Naomi Fry: I think one of the main things that we haven't really talked about yet, um, is that this is not an IP-based movie. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Right? I mean, we've had blockbusters. We have blockbusters. We have all of the Marvel movies- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: which are enormously expensive, and usually do enormously well in the box office. But they are not original stories, You know, like, there was like be- when I was sitting, I, I went to see it in a theater on the Upper West Side, uh, Friday afternoon. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: So, you know, the theater was full. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: You know, there were like 10 trailers before. Almost all of them were some form of like IP, um, uh, kind of like mega entertainment type thing. Yeah, like Supergirl. I was like, "I could not be less interested- ... than seeing a movie about Superman's cousin." How dare you? I, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The only movie that was- ... that I saw that I was like, "Okay, this is maybe like super stupid, Alex Schwartz: but Naomi Fry: I'm like so in," was the movie about like Brad Pitt and his dog. Did you see that? I didn't see that. Vinson Cunningham: No. I didn't get that trailer. Naomi Fry: I, it, there is some action movie where Brad Pitt has a trusty dog. And they go through h- Man ... to hell and back together. Okay. Vinson Cunningham: Holy shit. Naomi Fry: And I was like- We'll do it ... "Okay, this is..." I mean, it's Brad. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: And it's a dog. And it's a, and it's a Alex Schwartz: dog. It's Brad and it's a dog, sounds like a formula. Naomi Fry: And- Heart of Vinson Cunningham: the Beast. Naomi Fry: Heart of the Beast. I was like, "I'm gonna, fucking gonna, I'm gonna see this movie," because it, it, it, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's also an original story. Vinson Cunningham: There you go. Naomi Fry: And I was like, "Here we go." Vinson Cunningham: Set in the wilds of Alaska. Naomi Fry: Set in the wilds of Alaska. Yeah. I'm like, "We're so back." In a Alex Schwartz: harsh landscape that would likely kill any other man or dog. Naomi Fry: I know. And so- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, man ... Naomi Fry: and so I was like, "Okay. You know what? This might be, like, totally stupid," but I'm like, "Ugh, Hollywood still got it." Vinson Cunningham: You know? Naomi Fry: A man and his dog. It's magic. Alex Schwartz: But not just any man, Naomi Fry: and not just any dog. I mean, listen, Brad looks incredible. Vinson Cunningham: I was thinking, and I, I, I'm gonna o- offer my answer first, because I've been thinking about him a lot. But I wonder what you guys think of who is, who is working in the Spielberg vein these days. And it's inter- it's hard to-- It's a hard answer because, of course, part of what the Spielberg vein is, is working in many different veins, right? At least genre-wise. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Um, I've been thinking about Ryan Coogler a Naomi Fry: lot. Hmm. ' Vinson Cunningham: Cause like, you know- Yeah ... the mo- like, so- Naomi Fry: Sinners, yeah ... Vinson Cunningham: doing like Sinners- Right ... but then also having- Yeah ... uh, Fruitvale Station is like, it's like having Jurassic Park and Schindler's List, you know? Right. He, he's this very versatile but also very commercially minded filmmaker who is- Yeah nonetheless trying to really s- speak in language we can comprehend, like on the level of society or whatever. Are there other people doing the thing, this thing? Naomi Fry: I mean, I think the, I think the, the combination of kind of hi- history and fantasy, politics, you know, society and, and sci-fi, I think, yeah, I think Coogler- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah Naomi Fry: and, and just within even Sinners in and of itself- Yeah ... that combines so many of these impulses, I think that's a great, um- Read interpretation. Um, I'm also thinking about someone like Jordan Peele, who directed the movie Nope, which came out in 2022. Vinson Cunningham: Nope is very, very much in the vein Naomi Fry: of this film. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and this kind of like wonder of the '80s. You know? Someone who grew up cl- Hands Across Alex Schwartz: America and Us, Naomi Fry: yeah ... clearly grew up on Spielberg. Yeah. Um, and yeah, and, and the kind of like p- I guess playfulness- Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm ... Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. It, it, to me, it seems like if there's a legacy there, it's almost like what, what, what we call poptimism in m- in, in music- Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... uh, criticism, that like the assurance that you can make art in the context of not only genre but sort of- Naomi Fry: The market Vinson Cunningham: the market. The bit large. I mean, the other person that I meant- Yeah ... I was thinking about in this vein was Greta Gerwig- Yeah. Yeah ... who, who is, you know, Barbie, next is Narnia, but also- Mm-hmm ... has, you know, very indie-seeming films at the, uh, onset of her career, and is un, seems unashamed to say, "Yeah, I can do all of that and put forward a vision," whether it's literally how could you get more commercial than Barbie or something else. So that's, yeah. Alex Schwartz: I think, I think that's so right, Vinson. I think that one of the paths that Spielberg blazed was being a kind of auteur within the big capitalist commercial framework. Mm-hmm. And he's gotten shit from both sides for the fact that he straddles this divide. Mm-hmm. You know, whether it's being called not an artist or what have you, but when you talk about blockbusters and movies that are getting people in their seats, beyond a question the movies to be talking about right now are Obsession and Backrooms. Mm-hmm. Yes. And those are, what, what makes this an interesting story of the blockbuster, where Spielberg fits in, is that we have 79-year-old Spielberg going up against two guys who are roughly the same age he was when Jaws came out. Mm-hmm. So we have someone, he's not done making movies. I hear he's about to make his first Western. Can't wait to see it, all in, but we have someone at the latter part of his career, in the end of his career, who's back again trying to use his own formula reinvented to make a big hit film, and then we have these two other super scrappy filmmakers. A lot has been said about them. They're coming from the internet, they're making these movies on shoestring budgets, but these are both original horror concepts that just keep giving and giving and giving, and generating great excitement at the box office. So I think we're spying, I don't know and no one knows, if those things become a kind of Spielbergian formula. But we have, like, grandfather's special- Mm ... which is a blockbuster- Mm-hmm ... at the moment, and we have the young guys thing. And Spielberg's movie is very successful. About 59% of its audience, we've, we've read, was over the, the ancient age of 34, you know, us three included. I think there's a lot of general complaining about, of course we know there is, about Gen Z killing the movies and they don't appreciate it with their screens in front of their faces. Like, actually, no. Here are, the young people are showing up to watch movies in the theater to enjoy them, and it's really older people who have not come back in force to the movies since COVID. So Spielberg has got them back, and for that I'm very glad, but I don't think it is pointing a new direction in the way that Backrooms and Obsession is. Mm. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: What do you think, Vinson? Vinson Cunningham: I think that, I think that's probably right. Again, I do think it's trying to- It's almost like Spielberg is trying to bring sort of a space of like, I don't know, um, almost discourse about belief. Uh, this is, like, to me the whole thing about the, the, the, um, the nunnery and, and the, the, the conversations and the- Yes, the, to Alex Schwartz: a nunnery. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I insist on Vinson Cunningham: calling it Alex Schwartz: a nunnery. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, nunnery. Uh, Laura asking these questions, but like, but, but by what right would you bring it to light? And all these, you know. I do think he's trying to do something else, which I think is interesting to do in the space of the blockbuster. It's almost like Spielberg created the blockbuster, but then also created a space within the blockbuster to not parody the blockbuster, but, um, comment on it. Like, he's like he created the blockbuster and the meta blockbuster or something like that. But it's interesting to me that these new films, uh, Backrooms, Obsession, are horror, and therefore they are still, um, following a now time-tested path. It's like, "We'll trust you if you could scare us real good first." Like you could say that that's what Jaws is. Mm. You know? If you can do that, then we'll let you, you know, we'll, we, we trust you. You can take us anywhere you want to of a summer. You know? Yeah. So I, I do think that they're still working in the tradition. To your point about, um, the demographics of Disclosure Day, we should just say it made $44 million in North America in its opening weekend. Um, and you know, as we have been saying, he is back. Alex Schwartz: Yeah I mean we have no idea if this movie will turn out to be considered overall a success. Iit's funny, we're at the, we're at the beginning of it. To make money back, it's gonna have to make, generate a huge amount of money. The one, the other thing we should say about Spielberg blockbusters, and I'm sure many people listening know this, is that the other thing that Spielberg did was not just deliver enormous opening weekends, it was keeping movies in theaters for a very, very long time. Movies that people, that kept generating intense interest, that people wanted to see for months and months and months, which was and remains extremely rare. So that's- Yeah ... gonna be the test. Does it have staying power? But Spielberg is Spielberg, and you know, it's... I just keep thinking back on some episodes we've done and how nicely Spielberg could have fit into any, so many of them because, like, the suburban episode we did, you know, Spielberg, the bard of the suburbs um, just for one example. And it, he really just is still going. Still going. Bless him. Vinson Cunningham: This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barasch is our consulting editor, and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kutchman, and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. You can listen to all of our episodes anytime at newyorker.com/critics. Remember, send in your entries for the America in Song episode we're working on. Send us a voice memo about one song that gets at the way you feel about America today. Good, bad, or anything in between. Get specific. Tell us the lyrics that really stick with you, the, the musical moments that you remember. Send that to us at themail@newyorker.com/critics. We can't wait to hear from you