Naomi: Welcome to “Critics at Large,” a podcast from The New Yorker. I’m NF… Vinson: I’m VC… Alex: And I’m AS… Each week on this show we make sense of what’s happening in the culture right now – and how we got here. Well, we are on to the second installment of our Critics at Large interview series. This month, we’re talking with our favorite writers about their favorite cult classics. And Naomi, you’re up. NF: Yep so for this interview series, we each picked a “guest critic” to come on the pod. And I asked to do my conversation with Hannah Goldfield and I’m glad she agreed. Hannah is my friend but she is also just a fantastic food writer. ANd every time I talk to her about food I’m kind of like reminded about the depths of knowledge that she has. She’s written about like sushi in Omaha and dirty soda in in Utah. You know she’s just kind of like doing a lot of local food reporting. And when we were thinking about this theme we selected the cult classic right, we think often when we talk about this topic, about movies, we think about TV shows, we think about books, we think about albums. But it intrigued me to find out what this idea might mean in the food world. So that’s today on Critics at Large. The Hidden Gems of Cooking and Eating. ________________ Naomi: Hannah Goldfield. I'm so excited to have you here with me, just a, a bit of a intimate one-on-one. Our summer series, as you know, is about cult classics, right? The concept of a cult classic. What does it mean in a variety of cultural fields? What is your definition of a cult classic? Maybe kind of like broadly, and then more specifically when you think about food, what emerges? Hannah: The term cult classic I find to be so slippery. I'm such a fact-checker at heart that I'm always looking for, like, really sharp boundaries to define something. Naomi: Mm-hmm. Hannah: I think that in general, it's a piece of culture that is deeply beloved by a group of, of people that is not sort of mainstream. It's not something that you would find in every home in America, for example, but the people who do love it love it incredibly intensely. And I feel like it's, it's something that people often, like, attach their identity to. Like, there's a lot of pride in liking a cult classic 'cause you're part of a cult. You're a member of a small self-selecting group. Naomi: I mean, maybe we can start just talking about, like, ingredients. We can talk about restaurants. We can talk, you know, like how, how does it figure in the culinary world? Hannah: Right. I think there are definitely ingredients that end up as cult classics, things that, like, people who care especially about food have in their kitchens, whether it's like a brand of something or a thing like, having like pomegranate molasses in your cabinet. Naomi: Yeah, I know that people, like, have certain types of salt that they're very like devoted to. Hannah: Right. And these things shift and change. That's what's interesting. And maybe, I don't know if this is more true within the culinary world, but, like, I do feel like there are ingredients that nobody uses, and then they sort of become a cult classic, and then they become ubiquitous. Naomi: Right. Hannah: Like I feel like arugula was at one point– Naomi: Oh my God, yes. Hannah: maybe a cult classic. Naomi: I remember discovering arugula at least 25 years ago. I was a young lass. And I remember the mother of a boyfriend of mine at the time would buy arugula. And I remember being like, "Ooh, I love this. I love this." You know, "What is this?" "This is not iceberg lettuce," you know? Hannah: Right. Naomi: But that does beg the question, is there a difference between, like, a cult classic and, and, like, a trend? Because I remember in, like, um, Nora Ephron's, uh, "Heartburn," her, uh, novel, her kind of roma- Romana Clay novel, which I'm sure I've mentioned before on this podcast, where she recounts, like, kind of the breakup of her marriage from Carl Bernstein. She has this line in the book, "Pesto is the quiche of the '70s." Which is to say, all of these things which are kind of like... She's obviously, like, a connoisseur. She's, like, a gourmand. And these things that kind of, like, gain traction- Hannah: Yeah. Naomi: as a cult classic, but then obviously later everybody was eating – now everybody eats pesto, you know, or quiche. Hannah: Yes. I think some things kind of start out as trends and then become ubiquitous. But I do think there's an sort of another category, like, I, what popped to mind is there's a type of cabbage- Naomi: Mm-hmm. Hannah: called Caraflex cabbage. Naomi: Okay. Hannah: And that's become quite popular in a very small subset of people, I think Naomi: Who are these people? Hannah: Well, you see it a lot at restaurants. Naomi: I see. Hannah: But you also see it at farmers markets. Naomi: Mm-hmm. Hannah: And it is a little bit of this, like, thing... It's certainly not a household ingredient, and I don't think it will ever become one. And I guess presumably if it got popular enough, maybe some, like, huge farms would start to grow it. But it just feels like nobody in America at least cares enough about cabbage. I don't think cabbage is gonna rise to that level, although I could be wrong. I could be wrong. Maybe people were saying that about arugula. Naomi: It's true, Hannah: You know, 20 years ago or 25 years ago. Naomi: Yeah, who can tell? I mean, that brings to mind another thing is the, the sort of the idea of scarcity, right? Which is- Hannah: Mm ... Naomi: I think applicable, as you just suggested, to certain ingredients which just aren't, like, that widely available. It can be probably be applied to if we're thinking about restaurants as cult classics, right? Like, I remember when people started talking about In-N-Out Burger. I mean, I, I never lived in California. It's a California chain. And I remember people being like, "It's the Double-Double. It's the Animal." Hannah: Right, right, right. Naomi: You know, all of these. And of course, this is a chain. This isn't, like some, like, highfalutin... And yet I was like, "Oh, these people know something that I don't. They're talking about it as this kind of semi-secret." Hannah: Right. Yeah, because it's sort of a cult classic outside of California. It started in California, but it's in some other states too, although all kind of in the western half. But yeah, I, that's exactly right. Like, in LA it's everywhere, and in much of California it's everywhere. But to people on the East Coast, like to know about In-N-Out is to, or at least it was, and I think because it's grown more present in, in the zeitgeist over the years. But there was definitely a time where to know about In-N-Out was to sort of be part of a cult. Naomi: Yeah. Hannah: And also, it's funny to think about the shifting definition of cult classic in the age of the internet because it's like– Naomi: Yes. Hannah: we're just sharing information so constantly, especially on social media, that it's like nothing's a secret. Naomi: Sure, especially now with TikTok where, you know, you have, like, a TikTok girlie with like a million followers or whatever come to whatever restaurant, and suddenly there's lines out the door. Hannah: Down the block. Naomi: Yeah. Hannah: And then, like, just the very concept of, like, gatekeeping and not gatekeeping, and the idea of virality is sort of... It sort of overlaps with and is somehow also at odds with the idea of a cult classic. Naomi: Right. Hannah: So that's certainly complicated the whole thing. But I'm thinking of this restaurant called Gene's in the West Village. Naomi: Oh, yes. Hannah: And it's an old Italian restaurant. And I think it's kind of been blown up by exactly the process we're talking about. But there was a long time where it did feel like a cult classic in that, like, I would have this experience where I would realize that someone else also loved Gene's. And it wasn't like... It was around for so long, it wasn't hard to get into. I'm sure it probably is a lot harder now. And it was the classic thing of, like, the food isn't that good. Naomi: The food isn't that good, and it's actually relatively expensive. Like, it's- Hannah: It's kind of expensive. Naomi: It’s not, it's not like, oh, you could get, you know, like, an enormous steak for, like– Hannah: No. Naomi: you know, below market. It's, like, kind of expensive, not very good. Slathered in, like, you know, mushroom sauce or whatever. You know? Hannah: Exactly. I remember getting a plate of crudité there that was, like, very sad, and yet it felt like this piece of a New York that doesn't exist anymore. Like, I think the waiters wear, like, coat and tails, or they did, and they'd all been working there for, like, literally decades, and the room was sort of– Naomi: You have to call for a res, I believe. Like, they're not on- Hannah: I think you have to call, yes. Naomi: They're not on, you know, like, uh, Resy or OpenTable. Hannah: Yeah, and so is that still a cult classic? Maybe not, but it definitely was. Naomi: And I think meeting, as you said, meeting someone else who also knows about the same place is like meeting, like, a long-lost relative, you know? And it has, has a big part in making something a cult classic. You know? Hannah: Exactly. Naomi: Because it's kind of like a, a secret society. Hannah: Right, or Fanelli. Sorry, we should, I- Oh, Naomi: Fanelli ... could go on about this. Well, Fanelli is interesting because Fanelli Hannah: It was definitely a cult classic. Naomi: It was. Hannah: It managed to stay under the radar for a long time after Soho transformed from, like, artist haven to tourist destination. I feel like it was really the TikTok era- Naomi: Yes. Hannah: that blew it up, and, like, the age of paparazzi. I think there, there are always celebrities being photographed at tables on the sidewalk there. Naomi: It's true. Once, once I saw Diplo there. I was, like, a couple drinks in, and he was sitting outside with a couple of bros, and I saw him, and out of my mouth with no preamble as if God himself was speaking, I said, "I love you." And he very kindly said, "Thanks, I love you, too." It was a confusing interaction, more for me than for him, I'm sure. I'm sure he's used to it. Hannah: I love that. Naomi: I know. So that was at Finales. Hannah: Glorious. Naomi: In a minute, a cookbook that's been influencing restaurants and home cooks for 25 years that you've maybe never heard of. "Critics at Large" from "The New Yorker" will be right back. ::MIDROLL:: Naomi: Hannah, let's turn to cookbooks. Tell me about what makes a cult classic cookbook. Hannah: Yeah, I do think there have been In history, there have been cookbooks that I do feel like are or were in, like, everyone's home. Naomi: Like "The Joy of Cooking" or- Hannah: Right. Or Fannie Farmer. Cookbooks that become, like, a standard wedding present, for example. Naomi: Right. Hannah: Or a cookbook that, like, you go to college and your parents or your grandparents or whatever give you this cookbook to take with you to kind of start your adult life. Naomi: Yeah. I mean, and that was really, I mean, I'm thinking of a very, a relatively small country and community, but when I was growing up in Israel, there was one cookbook that everybody had. Hannah: Mm! Naomi: And I think it came out in the '70s. Her name was Ruth Sirkus, and it was in Hebrew, but generally in translation I guess it would be "Cooking with Love." That was the title of the book. And every home I ever went to– Hannah: Yeah, yeah. Naomi: had that, and every recipe, you know, like, it, I remember there was a potato salad that my mom and everyone else would make, you know? There was, like, a chocolate cake. There was, like, easy home cook basics Hannah: Yes. Naomi: that everybody cooked because everyone had the same book. That is really an example of just, like- Hannah: Yeah ... Naomi: absolutely widespread. Hannah: Do you think it's still widespread? 'Cause that's, that's something that's coming to mind for me now, too. Naomi: I would bet, if I had to guess, I would bet that it was, like, reissued with maybe some updates. Mm-hmm. But I, I'm not sure. But when I was growing up, that was the book that everybody had. Hannah: I feel like that's another category of cult classic is a cookbook that was for a time in everyone's home, and then sort of fell out of fashion, but now it's still kind of beloved by- Naomi: Right. Hannah: you know, people who love cookbooks and love the history of cookbooks. Like now I wanna buy that book. I'm gonna go get that book. Naomi: And of course, Hannah, you belong to a subset of people who are food hounds, cookbook hounds, whatever you wanna- Hannah: Right. Naomi: call it, and I know that among this group, there is a sense in which certain cookbooks of the past, cult classics, if you will, where there's a kind of like maybe even almost a competitive eBay kind of culture of, like, "Oh, you can get this book, but it's $200-" Hannah: Right. Naomi: It's not something that you can come across at your Barnes & Noble or on Amazon It's something that needs to be kind of sniffed out. And I know that you talked to Bonnie Slotnick, who has a cookbook bookstore, and I know she kind of like talked to you about that phenomenon of kind of like- Hannah: Yes ... Naomi: a heightened interest in certain cookbooks and the prices that people are willing to pay for them. Hannah: Yeah. So Bonnie Slotnick of Bonnie Slotnick Cookbooks, a wonderful store in the East Village, which is all, it's all rare and vintage cookbooks. She doesn't carry anything new. Um, and she's just an absolute encyclopedia of cookbooks and like a true historian. I kind of brought up the subject of cult classics with her, and it's funny 'cause like she's, she's almost like too deep in, in the world so like she can't-- She was like, "Well, who's the cult?" Like, it's like, I mean, she's the cult- Naomi: She is the cult ... Hannah: in a way. But she does have a great sense of what people are looking for because people come to her often looking for, for rare books that are hard to find and, and can be expensive. Naomi: What are some of these books that kind of like fetch high prices because of their relative obscurity and, and rarity? Do you have a couple of examples for us? Hannah: Well, one example is a book that I wrote about as well, um, which was Martha Stewart's very first cookbook called "Entertaining." Naomi: Mm-hmm. Hannah: It was out of print, and it became weirdly hard to get, and it was going for like hundreds of dollars on eBay to the point that then the publisher reissued it because it was that much of a, of a cult classic, I guess you could say. Which is funny because it's like Martha Stewart, the like doyenne of, you know- Naomi: Sure, this is not like a marginal, this is not a marginal figure. Hannah: No, she's one of our biggest celebrities. She is the definition of a household name in every sense, you could say. Um, so the idea of one of her cookbooks being a cult classic is kind of funny, but I, but I think it was. Naomi: Yeah. Hannah: And maybe it still is, even if it's highly available now. I still think it's like, it's not really applicable to, to today. Um, I wrote a whole column about it. It's like a kind of glimmer in time. You know, it was so specific to a certain kind of entertaining within a certain kind of socioeconomic scene that didn't apply to everyone then, and certainly I think applies even less now. It's just a d- a very different era. Naomi: Yes. So Hannah, now we're gonna turn mhmm because I know that there is a cookbook that you brought today that we're gonna talk about a little bit more at length. Because when we asked you to think about a cult classic in the world of cookbooks, you were like, "I want to do the 'Zuni Café' cookbook." Hannah: Yeah. Naomi: So why don't you tell us a little bit about the book and the restaurant that it stemmed from. Hannah: Yeah, so it's called the "Zuni Café Cookbook: A Compendium of Recipes and Cooking Lessons from San Francisco's Beloved Restaurant." Uh, it's by Judy Rodgers, who was the chef at Zuni Café for many years. She died in 2013. The book came out in 2002. So Judy Rodgers, who was the chef, um, she worked at Chez Panisse. And she certainly kind of picked up the mantle of, of this idea of California cooking, and then Zuni Café during her reign became super influential in that sense. So it's a lot of, like, seasonal European-inspired but very California, produce-driven cooking. Naomi: And you brought the book with you. Hannah: I brought the book. Hannah: It's very big. I, I think it weighs probably four pounds. Naomi: Wow. Hannah: It's over 500 pages, I guess it -- including the index. And it has this extremely beautiful, to me, image of a plate with these kind of mottled nectarines, speckled nectarines, and then fresh almonds sort of falling out of their fuzzy green pods. And then there's some prosciutto on butcher paper in the corner. And it's just in- incredibly appealing. Naomi: When did you first become familiar with it? Hannah: So part of what made me think of it was that I first became familiar with a recipe from it, which a friend made for me at a dinner party, and it was a very memorable meal because of this one recipe, which was the, the roast chicken. The trick to it is that it gets pre-seasoned. It gets salted a full 24 hours before you're ready to cook it, and then you leave it in the fridge uncovered, and it's basically like a dry brine. It draws out all the moisture and seasons the meat from within, and then you cook it in a very hot oven. You basically turn your oven as high as it will go. Naomi: And I believe there's also a, a bread salad that goes along with it? Hannah: Yes, which is, like, kind of surprising and exciting. Like, bread salad is not that common here in the US. I feel like it's, panzanella is everywhere in Italy, but, but the idea of, of a bread salad was kind of, is kind of novel, and it gets tossed partly in the drippings from the chicken, and there are currants involved and pine nuts, and it's just-- and, and some greens. Naomi: Mm-hmm. Hannah: And it's just really, like, kind of a perfect meal. And the recipe has been, you know, I know Deb Perelman of Smitten Kitchen ha- published a sort of adaptation of it. It’s certainly burrowed its way into a certain subset of the culinary zeitgeist. Naomi: And what is it about the cookbook specifically that makes it so beloved among those in the know. And how is it different from, like, "Joy of Cooking" or a book that's much more widely known? Hannah: Well, I think the things that make it so beloved by the people who love it are also the things that have kept it maybe from becoming, um, a classic. Naomi: Interesting. Hannah: Because one thing you notice is how text heavy it is. Naomi: It's so text heavy. Hannah: And as we were just discussing, it's huge. It is huge in size. It's a bit intimidating at first. Naomi: Yes. Hannah: And I think I, I could see it being intimidating all the way through for someone who isn't particularly interested in cooking or maybe isn't, like, a cooking obsessive. But if you are interested in cooking, if you have a curiosity about it even, it's an incredible resource. Someone described it, I think it was Johnathon Gold, as, as a very generous cookbook. It is so detailed and so vividly written. There's like, there's a whole– Naomi: The writing is wonderful. Hannah: The writing is wonderful. Naomi: It really reminded me of like, you know, I'm not a person who's very interested in cooking. I'm a person who loves food, and I'm a person who loves reading about food. Hannah: Mm-hmm. Naomi: Like whether it's in a, in the form of like, actual food writing or if it's like, you know, I always loved like "Little House on the Prairie" when they would describe like, you know, the, the leg of venison and whatever it is, like skinning a bear- Hannah: I feel like there are like hotcakes in "Little House on the Prairie." Naomi: There's hotcakes. You know, there's always like drippings. Bacon lard. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I love that sort of thing, and I have read like Elizabeth David, you know- Mm-hmm ... books that do have- Hannah: Who was a big influence on, on Judy Rodgers. Naomi: Yeah, books that do have recipes- Mm-hmm ... but that aren't... The recipes are almost... It's not that they're incidental, but they are placed into a whole narrative that is kind of almost like a life philosophy, you know? Hannah: Right. Exactly. Naomi: I read the introduction, and one thing that was interesting to me, this is a quote from Judy Rodgers from the book. "A truly good meal depends on a cavalcade of sound judgments, many of which occur well before you lift a knife. When you decide what to cook, you are deciding whether a meal can be really good or not. If you choose to do a dish you can't get good ingredients for, one you are completely unfamiliar with, or one you don't have the time or proper equipment to prepare, you may be setting the stage for a mediocre meal that will be no fun to produce." So here's what I found interesting. The combination that it tries to forward between exactitude and fun. Like saying like, "Oh, you have... Everything needs to be just so." This is not a book where it's like, you know, five-minute meals for the harried housewife, you know, to throw together, and it's okay if you don't have, if you sub in, you know, whatever, this kind of flour for that kind of flour. You know, it's like, "It doesn't matter, whatever you have in your pantry." This is not that. This is, like, very exacting, but what Rogers keeps emphasizing is that this will be enjoyable. Yeah. This will be fun. Hannah: I think she's also really holding your hand. I mean, if you, if you read, there's so there's a lot of text before you even get to the recipes in this book that are kind of, uh, about her life and her history and her path, you know, toward food and the course of her career. And then in the recipes themselves, they're very, very detailed. But a lot of the detail is about learning to trust your own instincts. And, you know, a lot of recipes I find in, in, in k- modern cookbooks and, you know, in cookbooks throughout history where it's, you just feel like the person has kind of pushed you out on a raft on your own, and, and you kind of wish that you could ask further questions. Like, "But what does that mean? What do I-- What if this happens?" And she, it feels like she really anticipates a lot of those questions. Like she'll say things like, "You might think this is, you know, the wrong color, but in fact, wait a few minutes and it will..." You know? Like she, she's really, really thoughtful and helpful, and I think that's part of the, the magic of it. Naomi: What, what are some of your favorite recipes from the book that you've made time and again, and what feels special about eating this kind of food? Hannah: To be totally honest, I haven't cooked that much from, from this book. I think in part because I am in a phase of my life where I'm not really cooking exciting dishes from cookbooks. I'm cooking things that I pray that my children will deign to eat. Naomi: You are the harried housewife who's throwing- I'm the harried housewife ... together five, five-minute meals. Hannah: It's kind of true. And- Yeah ... so my relationship with this book, I've made the chicken many times, but it's more of like a fantasy for me. I, I do hope that I'll get to a place in my life where I can have these leisurely weeknight dinners maybe after my kids have gone to college, or- Naomi: Bye-bye. So long. Hannah: Or, um- See ya ... or, or dinner, or dinner parties where I'm, like, making really ambitious things. Like, I'm just flipping- Yeah ... open the book right now, you know? How amazing would it be to make tomato summer pudding? Ugh. Maybe my kids would like that. Actually, I should, I should study- Naomi: Wow ... Hannah: more carefully. Naomi: But I do understand what you mean. Like, when I was looking through the book, I could definitely see, like, reading it, as you say, as a kind of fantasy. Like, looking at it, like kind of like porn or something, where you're like not actually having sex, but you're kind of like, envisioning what it might be like to have sex, I guess maybe or something. Hannah: Totally. Someday. Naomi: ... oh, imagine, like, what it would be. Only this is- Yeah ... like, you know, when I look at this book, I'm like, "What if I had money to buy a house upstate?" And then suddenly, like, I would be upstate, and I could be like... It would be a quiet evening. Hannah: Uh-huh. Naomi: And I would open the Zuni Café cookbook. And I would cook something. Pull out your lentils. Yeah. And I would like- I mean, Hannah: the thing I will say is that I do feel that if I did attempt any of these recipes that, that they would turn out pretty well, and which is not the case with every restaurant cookbook. And I feel like I've studied enough cookbooks by now and, and tried to cook from at various points that there are, there are a lot of restaurant cookbooks that feel like vanity projects, and it's just about putting out a cookbook to say that you did. Naomi: Yeah. Or like a branding exercise or something. Hannah: Exactly. Naomi: Yeah. Hannah: And you read the recipes, and you can tell from reading the recipes that the, the level of detail simply isn't there. Nobody is holding your hand, and you're like, "What even is this? I don't, I don't even know where to find this thing." Whereas she's giving such specific examples. I've, I've flipped to a random page here, which I think is kind of funny because it's so, it feels so, um, aspirational. It's sand dabs with shallots, sea beans, and sherry vinegar. Naomi: Okay. What? Hold up now. Hannah: I believe Sand dabs are a type of fish? Naomi: I guess. Hannah: And sea beans are glasswort, a crunchy, briny marsh succulent. She does say you can substitute capers or caper berries. Oh. Oh, oh, and here, okay, the fish. In lieu of sand dabs, a mild succulent flatfish that is a San Francisco delicacy, there you go, you can use small whole pan-ready sole or flounder. Hmm. And then she even goes on to describe what pan-ready is. I mean gutted, scaled, head and tail removed, and fins trimmed. Filleted fish is an option as well, but adjust cooking time accordingly, and be prepared for it to curl as it cooks. Like, I, I could cry how, for how supported I feel. Like- Yes ... I'm kind of an, an anxious cook. I, I really like it, and I really like to follow recipes, but I do get a little worried. You know, what if s- if something's going wrong, I've just wasted hundreds of dollars. Yeah. Should it be curling, you know? And it's like, it's kinda the closest you can get to having someone standing next to you- Naomi: It's mother ... Hannah: telling you what to do. It's mother. Naomi: It's mother. Has something been lost as the culture has shifted to the landscape of weeknight-friendly cooking? This is "Critics at Large" from The New Yorker. We'll be right back. ::MIDROLL:: Naomi: Hannah, so we've been talking about cult classics, and one of the things that came up with the Zuni Café cookbook is you kind of confirmed my initial impression of it, which is, uh, it's kind of a rarefied artifact, right? It's like, not something we would cook from every night. It's something that requires, like, time, money, attention, all of that, which are all things that we are all more or less lacking, you know? Hannah: Short on, yeah. Naomi: And I think that's another thing we can talk about with cult classics, which is like now so many things are so readily available, and part of their selling point is often their ease, right? Hannah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Naomi: That the barrier to entry is quite low. You know, I’m thinking of someone like Alison Roman or Ali Slagle, some of these recipe makers who are very good, but part of the appeal is that it's not a four-pound book where every recipe you have to buy, like, a skate wing and, like, caper berries and do this, like, very exacting process. And so I'm wondering, it, it seems almost like the cult classic concept in cooking is almost has, like, a political valence, right? It's like, if you can afford, not just money-wise, but in, in, you know, class-wise, time-wise, you know, leisure-wise, like, gender-wise, whatever, to, like, take, like, four hours and cook this thing, you are a certain kind of person, and there are not many of that kind of person, versus as, as we called it, you know, the harried mom of two,kind of, like, putting together a meal, short on time, perhaps money, et cetera, et cetera. Hannah: Yeah, I think from what I have seen, the idea of, of the harried mom needing to throw food on the table, that's obviously not anywhere near to being a new concept. But I do feel like over time, it's become a little less pragmatic, a little, there's a little more in, in the content or recipes or books that are coming out to kind of address that problem today, there is a little more pleasure and fun incorporated into it, at least from what I've seen. Like, there was a category of cookbooks, I think in the '70s and '80s, where it was the type of meal was called a dump. Naomi: The dump! How appetizing. Hannah: Yeah, there's like, like, 10-minute dumps or dinner, dinner dumps where- and the i- the idea was- Kids, Naomi: dump's on the table. Hannah: Dump. Dump's ready. The idea was that you, yeah, cro- Crockpot dump meals, dump dinners, dump cakes, slow cooker. Maybe they, these still kind of exist, actually. Naomi: Oh my God. Hannah: But the idea is that you're just dumping ingredients into a pot or a pan. Naomi: Ugh. Hannah: But I feel like we've moved away from that, and more towards this idea of, of doing things quickly, and maybe not taking it so seriously, but again, not sacrificing flavor and pleasure. And, and I do think there's a whole kind of cast of young recipe developers who are producing recipes that are more maybe in the spirit of a Judy Rogers, but not so, yeah, the, the barrier to entry is not as high. And then a, a good example I think that kind of brings this all together is someone like Samin Nosrat- Naomi: Right. Hannah: who was very influenced by, um, Judy Rogers. I know she's, she's said that many times in interviews. And I feel like her first cookbook, "Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat," is kind of in the, the mold of the "Zuni Café Cookbook" in that, I mean, I, I would argue that her book, the b- barrier to entry is a lot lower. And her book doesn't actually have that many recipes. It's a little similar to "Zuni Café" in that it's, it starts with text and then the recipes are kind of at the end, but there are many fewer of them. And it's really a book about technique, and it's another hand-holder, I would say. It's like, “it's okay, you can do this. It might be hard, but I'm gonna tell you exactly what to do,” and also not just tell you what to do, but tell you how to develop your own instincts, teach you technique and kind of philosophy. So that's like, it's sort of an evolution of this idea. And I, you know, Samin's book is interesting, like huge bestseller. Naomi: Yeah, absolutely. Not a cult classic, like it's, yeah. Hannah: Yeah, I do feel like her, her book is as much of a classic as a cookbook can be. It'll be interesting to see how that changes over time. I mean, I, I think it will definitely stick around, but things do change. The zeitgeist changes and, and things fall in and out of fashion, of course. So will it become a cult classic? Perhaps it will. Naomi: I mean, maybe it will because yeah, time passes. There will be other chefs, cookbook authors rise, new restaurants are open. Hannah: Styles change ... styles change. Ingredients change, you know? That's the other thing, like there are things that everyone cooks with, like sun-dried tomatoes is a, another example, like similar to the pesto being niche. Naomi: Yeah, sun-dried tomatoes, remember? Hannah: Yeah. Naomi: That was a real moment. Hannah: Yeah, and they're just not... Nobody's eating those anymore. Naomi: Hannah, just to wrap us up, is there an ingredient you would champion for a comeback? Hannah: Um, a cult classic. I mean, now I, I feel like I could just talk for hours about cult classic foods that I, I wasn't thinking about when we first started talking and are now rushing into my mind, like Grape-Nuts are a cult classic. Naomi: Oh, Grape-Nuts. I like Grape-Nuts. Hannah: I love Grape-Nuts. Naomi: The crunch! The saltiness! Hannah: It's like eating delicious gravel. Naomi: Oh my God, it's so good. Mm. Hannah: Um, I eat Grape-Nuts several times a week. Naomi: Do you really? Hannah: They're-- Yes, and they're literally everywhere. I mean, you can't-- you can buy them at any store, but I don't feel like they're at the forefront of cereal culture in the way, say, Cheerios are. You know, it's like, I feel like there are maybe some people who have not heard of Grape-Nuts, maybe. Naomi: Hmm. Hannah: Maybe I'm wrong about that. Naomi: We're bringing them back. Hannah: We gotta bring them back. Naomi: Hannah, thank you so much for joining me today. This was such a delight. I feel like I learned so much, and also I'm gonna eat something now because I'm really hungry. Hannah: Some Grape-Nuts perhaps. Naomi: Perhaps some Grape-Nuts. Or sun-dried tomatoes. Hannah: Both together. A new cult classic. Naomi: This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barasch is our consulting editor, Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer, and we had production help this week from Grace Rubin and Michelle O'Brien. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kuchman, and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. Next week is the final installment of our Critics at Large summer interview series! Emily Nussbaum is coming on the show to talk with our very own Alex Schwartz about a little-known Canadian TV series that first aired more than twenty years ago… and that people “in the biz” consider one of the best TV shows ever made. Join us for that, and in the meantime, y[a][b]ou can listen to all of our episodes anytime at newyorker.com/critics.