Naomi Fry: This is Critics at Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry. Vinson Cunningham: And I'm Vinson Cunningham. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Now, you may have noticed a, a little, a slight difference in the rhythm of our- ... intro today. Usually there's a, a third chiming voice, uh, offering their name, too. Naomi Fry: As clear as a bell. Vinson Cunningham: That's right. Alex Schwartz is home sick today, so it's me and Nomi. She misses you. I'm sure you miss her. Uh, but there's a big thing happening. Last week we lost one of the most beloved figures in really recent memory, Dolly Parton. News of Dolly's death was announced in a video from her family, and within minutes it felt like a wave of love and admiration was breaking. Everywhere you looked there were tributes to Dolly Parton. How did you, Nomi, how did you hear about the news, and what have you been seeing, uh, in the days since then? Naomi Fry: Well, I heard it through one of my group chats. There was a, a link shared from TMZ- Mm ... that said Dolly Parton had died at 80 years old, and, you know, it just kept coming from there. I mean, it was like a total outpouring in a way that, like, it didn't surp- I mean, obviously I knew that she was a beloved figure, but it- Yeah ... really felt like sei- seismic. Do, do you agree? Yeah, it was- Just like the amount and the- Yeah ... tenor of the tributes. Vinson Cunningham: Instantaneous. Yeah. Uh, and you know, we all of course had the sense that she was very, very beloved in her life. I've never heard a bad word said about her. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, and still it was shocking the, the volume. There were digital signs on, on the Long Island Interstate, you know, "Jolene, don't speed. I will always love safe driving." Yeah. I mean, just like everybody- Naomi Fry: Yeah ... Vinson Cunningham: every establishment you went into, every sort of, um, situation that I- Naomi Fry: Like the music was blasting- That's right immediately in like coffee shops. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Um, so yeah, just the real kind of like coast to coast, everywhere in between, horizon to horizon- Yeah ... kind of like a sweeping response of grief and, and love to- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: this, this piece of news. Vinson Cunningham: Grief and love and a s- and a kind of joy that she ever existed. Yes. There was just a sort of, um, just a kind of sharing of people's, uh, favorite moments. So in that vein, we are talking today about Dolly Parton and what accounts for this immense sense of appreciation that has taken hold in the culture, uh, over the last week. When it comes to Parton's life and work, of course it's impossible to be exhaustive. There's just too much to cover. So what we're gonna do is call up three of our f- favorite, most illustrious- New Yorker colleagues who are going to help us build a picture of who Dolly Parton was and what her legacy inevitably will continue to be. We will hear from the great Kathryn Schulz, who wrote Dolly Parton's postscript, as we call it here in The New Yorker, from the music critic Amanda Petrusich, who has agreed to the frankly impossible task- of picking the three, just three out of a catalog of thousands, essential Dolly Parton songs. And finally, we'll talk with Lauren Michele Jackson, who is such a great thinker on the topic of celebrity and fame. We'll talk with her about Dolly's absolutely singular status as an icon So that's today on Critics at Large, All Things Dolly Parton ________________ Is there one piece of Dolly Parton's work that is especially near and dear to your heart? A song, an album, a movie? Naomi Fry: Well, I think, you know, this is like many people, um, one Dolly Parton, uh, text that I always enjoy going back to is, is 9 to 5, uh, the, the movie she starred in with Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, um, in 1980. and I watched it several times over the years, and I watched it again only a couple of, couple nights ago with, with, with my daughter in, in tribute to Dolly, and it's just, like, such a, such a delight, including the theme song. You know, with just, like... It's so kind of, like, rollicking and exciting, and then the movie is such a kind of Looney Tunes comedy that has, like, heart and also kind of an ideological bent. Mm-hmm. It's just, like, such a delight. And, and, and just Dolly is just, like, such a sweetheart in it. CLIP: 9 to 5 Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Doralee, the, you know, put-upon secretary- I gotta go back to the- ... who does her best until she snaps. CLIP: 9 to 5 What about you, Vinson? Vinson Cunningham: Uh, my favorite Dolly Parton work of art, uh, which I'm sure we're gonna talk about is The 1974 song Jolene. CLIP: Jolene Naomi Fry: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: It's just brilliant. It's- Yeah ... the, the minor key, the repetition of the name Jolene, it's just such a work of real, true, recognizable human emotion, and it's like Mount Rushmore to me. It's so good. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Okay, let's get into it. Uh, we're starting out hearing from Kathryn Schulz. Kathryn is a staff writer at The New Yorker, and as we said before, wrote The New Yorker's postscript, which is what we call obituaries, basically, for Dolly Parton. And she's here now. Hi, Kathryn. Naomi Fry: Hi, Kathryn. Kathryn Schultz: Good morning. Vinson Cunningham: Hey, Kathryn. Hey. It's so good to see you. Kathryn Schultz: You too. How are you guys? Vinson Cunningham: Good. Kathryn Schultz: Great. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, and maybe this is a bit of BTS, uh, about the, the process sometimes at The New Yorker. As it sometimes happens, uh, minutes after the news of Dolly Parton's death, you, Kathryn, had already texted your editor to say that you had, you wanted to write her postscript for the magazine. So I, I guess we should start by asking just why you were so eager to, to, to write this lovely piece. Kathryn Schultz: I'm normally very reluctant to raise my hand for last-minute assignments because I am an, typically an extraordinarily slow writer. Mm-hmm. And I know my limitations, so I, I try not to, uh, uh, volunteer for things that involve swift turnaround. But I love Dolly, uh, and, and she's a hero in this household and, and a hero of my whole life. She had a great fan in the form of my father, who was a Jewish refugee who grew up from his teenage years on in Detroit, not what you think of as core country music audience. Naomi Fry: It wasn’t coal country. Kathryn Schultz: it was very far from coal country. Yeah, hard scrabble in a very different way, but very far from coal country. And that was part of what Dolly did was made a whole lot of people call in love with country music who didn’t actually identify as country music fans. It just felt like the kind of thing that I knew so well and so deeply, uh, obviously not as a human being, but as a body of work, as a figure in the world. Mm-hmm. That, uh, it didn't feel like the kind of heavy lift of, well, how will I do all the research and the reporting? I felt like I actually have a lot to say and I'd really like to say it. I Vinson Cunningham: mean, yeah, that's one of the surprises for me is how many people have so much to say that, like, there is this preexisting heroism and this preexisting, uh, intimacy. What is it, like in, in your estimation, that people res- respond to so strongly with her? Kathryn Schultz: I mean, you know, it's an interesting question. I, i- speaking for myself, I, I think it's, um- It's kind of the whole package, right? I mean, what's interesting about Dolly is, is you could take any piece of the life and it would stand on its own two feet. It's, you know, the songwriting and the musical career just all by itself is, is jaw-dropping. I mean, decades upon decades of incredibly, uh, successful, uh, funny, charming, moving music that reached generations after generations of people. You know, if that were your whole life, you'd think, I mean, amazing, right? Yeah. We should all we should all live such a life, uh, of, of creative genius and of bringing joy to people's lives in this way. Uh, but of course, there was also Dolly Parton, the, the, um, quite brilliant entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. Right? A, a- an almost, uh, Oprah-level figure in her capacity, uh, uh, both for, both for a kind of social savvy and, and for a business savvy. Uh, you know, plenty of celebrities, uh, loan out their names, as it were. You know, put, put their, uh, brand on other brands and sort of expand their personal fortune that way. But Dolly was quite different than that. She actually, uh, was the mind behind most of the enterprises she got involved in, most famously, of course, Dollywood. Uh, but I, I think for me, the, the thing that moves her over into the category of You know, the, the, the, the ready word one reaches for is saint, right? Yeah. The, the thing that- Yeah ... moves her over into the category of- Cultural Vinson Cunningham: hero, yeah. Yeah ... Kathryn Schultz: the cultural hero, exactly, uh, is, is her incredible generosity, right? I mean, this is someone who came from nothing and, and might reasonably have felt the instinct as, as, you know, generations, for instance, coming up through the Great Depression did, to hoard everything they had, right? And, and she had the absolute opposite instinct, which was to, uh, to give as much away as she could and to give back as much as she could. And, and she, you know, it's, it's cliched to say, oh, never forgot where she came from. Uh, but, but, you know, remembering is one thing and doing is something else. And, you know, I mean, this woman gave away 300 million books and counting- Yeah ... to American children and, and, um, in countless other ways made her generosity known and palpable and important in, in every community that, that reached out for help, basically. That, to me, is, um, is the real legacy. Naomi Fry: Catherine, can you maybe walk us a little bit through Dolly's origins? Kathryn Schultz: Sure, I'd be happy to. Um, so sh- Dolly Parton was the, uh, fourth of 12 children born to, uh, a very, uh, kind of hardscrabble family, right? Barely above subsistence living. Her father, uh, at the time she was born, her father was a sharecropper in Sevier County, Tennessee, meaning he didn't own the land. Uh, they owned essentially nothing. Uh, But it was a very, very hand-to-mouth living, and she writes about it really wonderfully. I think another, uh, kind of underestimated feature of Dolly, uh, she was in a great way a self-mythologizer. Uh, but she was, she was a great writer. Uh, there's, there's good reason to believe she actually did write, um, at least the first of, of her own memoirs, and she sounds just like she does in her songs. She's very, uh, kind of quick-witted and comic. Uh, she has a, a wonderful, uh, kind of funny flair to her. Uh, but she writes quite frankly and beautifully and movingly about her upbringing and about, um- The poverty of circumstance and the wealth of, of joy and family and community. Uh, and um, one aspect of that joy, of course, was music. You know, she had a, um, uncle who was a gifted musician. Uh, her, her mother, uh, sang all the time around the house, and kind of brought- Mm-hmm ... in this very Appalachian way, had brought this kind of old, uh, English and Welsh tradition of ballads and, and, uh, kind of homespun music into her life. So from very early on she started s- singing- Yeah uh, at, at, at age six. You know, her, her professional debut was in her grandfather's church, the church being, uh, the other, like, deeply formative influence in her life. Um, so she began singing in church. Uh, she quite quickly by, like, you know, 10 years old was, was singing for the, um, local, uh, radio stations. Uh, so, you know, she started that at age 10 and, and by 13 there she is at the Grand Ole Opry, uh, being introduced by Johnny Cash. she was truly maybe more than anything else just a natural born performer. Mm-hmm. She just loved it. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, speaking of that sort of English Welsh mountain tradition, one of my favorite... You know, now there's all these clips running around the internet. Yeah. One of my favorite clips is her, um, in Ken Burns's, uh, country documentary, and she starts to sing like a little snippet of one of those mountain ballads. CLIP: Ken Burns doc Vinson Cunningham: it's like she's immediately inhabited by- His fingers were- You're, you're talking about this love of performance. You can just feel her whole sort of ancestry rolling through her in this amazing way. in the piece. Mm. I, I hope you don't mind if I quote you to you. Uh, you, you- Kathryn Schultz: It will make me cringe, but go ahead. Vinson Cunningham: You, you says, you say that, you know, she's Part Betty Boop- Part Annie Oakley, part Abraham Lincoln. And then there's another part, uh, right after that you say something that I really wanna ask about, and, and it's about sort of maybe the construction of a persona, and how this interacts with our, you know, our enjoyment of a figure. Those closest to her presumably knew some other Dolly, less rehearsed, and likely deeper. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: The rest of us just got the surface, but who could feel cheated? The surface of Dolly was the point, like the surface of diamonds. I would just love to hear you talk maybe about the sort of, the allure of her persona. Yes, she had this generosity, this personal, um, relationship to other people that you had to kind of know more about her to know, but just seeing her on television was its own experience. Naomi Fry: It really Vinson Cunningham: was. Um. It really was. What, what, what did you make of that, that presence, that persona? Kathryn Schultz: I, yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly right. And maybe, you know, um, yeah, in the years to come, uh, as, as people feel like they have done right by, by her desire for privacy- Mm-hmm ... and the moment has come to share more stories, maybe we'll hear more about other things about Dolly Parton. Uh, because, you know, one assumes there was some intense i- interior private part, uh, be- in part because the persona was so polished, right? There was no way into it. It was, it was a perfect entity. Um, I, I think she understood how people saw her, right? Especially in those early decades. How could she not, She's setting forth in the world as this incredibly ambitious young musician who also happens to be this kind of bombshell blonde, right? I mean, y- not, um, not the kind of look she could overlook, right? And, um, she, she made very early a very powerful choice, which was to just absolutely and completely step into that, right? Um, you, you have a range of options in that moment. One is to bow out of the game entirely because, how maddening to be this incredibly gifted singer and this incredibly gifted songwriter, and all half the world, three-quarters of the world wants to talk to you about is, like, your breasts, frankly, your looks, and these things that are, that are utterly irrelevant to who you actually are and what you're actually capable of. That is, like, so frustrating. Dolly said, "Okay. You know, here I am. I have this incredible surface. I have this surface people keep reacting to. I am going to step into it and change it and polish it and refine it and, and make it even, uh, even more impossible to overlook so that I get to be in control, That's tough, you know. I, I would love to hear what that experience was actually like for her, and she, in a way, to her credit, decided just never to say. She just did the things she loved to do Naomi Fry: could we talk a little bit about, um, the specifics of her philanthropy? Kathryn Schultz: So yeah, I mean, her, her philanthropy was capacious and, and, um, occurred on, on many fronts, some of which I'm sure will be forever unknown to us. She was not a particularly showy giver. Um, but she did establish the Imagination Library, which, um, you know, this is a program that will send, uh, any child in this country, regardless of circumstance, regardless of income, regardless of anything at all, uh, any child in this country will get a free book every month up until the age of five when they begin kindergarten. And you can watch me, I can actually barely speak about it without tearing up. You know, when my, um- Vinson Cunningham: Hmm ... Kathryn Schultz: when my first daughter was born, uh, there were two things in the hospital that made me cry, and one was information from the National Diaper Bank, because you just think you have this, like, precious little newborn, and how heartbreaking to not have the most basic resources to take care of them. And the other was information. It was literally a sign-up, like, sign this baby up right now for the Imagination Library. Oh. Naomi Fry: And, Kathryn Schultz: you know, incredible, right? Like, you have a new baby, and this, this mind just ready to, like, absorb the whole world, and there is Dolly Parton with this institution she created to make sure that that kid will be invited into the just magnificent and, and vast world of books and stories and language. And she did that because her father never learned to read, and she wanted to do what she could to make sure that was never any other child's fate, which is a dream anyone could have, but I mean, 300 million books. That is really something. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. That is. Naomi Fry: Before we go, uh, I'm just wondering if there's a song that's been on your mind in the days since she died. Kathryn Schultz: Sure. I mean, I could never pick a favorite, right? I- there's, there's just- Yeah ... so many, and they're so wonderful, and they're so different. Um, but it is interesting. You know, I have been, since she died, I have been listening nonstop, uh, to the same song, which, uh one of her later albums, Backwoods Barbie, uh, there is a song on that album called Better Get to Living. And it is about exactly what the title says, you know, better get to living, right? Like, life is short. None of it, uh, is, is a guarantee. None of it should be taken for granted. CLIP: “Better Get to Livin’ ” Naomi Fry: Thank you so much for being with us today, Catherine. Kathryn Schultz: Yeah, thanks for having me on. It was a ton of fun. I hope you're all just listening to Dolly around the clock. Naomi Fry: Same. Vinson Cunningham: In a minute, The New Yorker's Amanda Petrusich, Critics at Large from The New Yorker will be right back :: MIDROLL1 :: Naomi Fry: We've been talking about Dolly Parton's life, and now we're gonna be turning to her music, and we're getting help from an expert on this one. This is our beloved colleague, Amanda Petrusich, who writes about music for the magazine, Amanda Petrusich: Hey, guys. Hey. Can you hear me? Naomi Fry: Yes. We Vinson Cunningham: can hear and see you. Amanda Petrusich: It's a miracle. Naomi Fry: Welcome back. Oh, my God, I see your cat. Amanda Petrusich: Oh. Yeah, he's usually very present on Zooms. Hopefully, we will not have to, um, quarantine him elsewhere in the Naomi Fry: home. No, I want him to be pre- I want him to be- ... more present. Thank you so much for, for coming on. Uh, you are a, a dear friend of the pod, and I know you have a lot to say about Dolly. I mean, as a, as a musician, you know, there's the persona, the character, the entrepreneur, you know, the philanthropist, all of those things, but of course, she is first and foremost a musician. And from a musical perspective, what would you say makes her unique? Amanda Petrusich: Yeah, it's funny because she's obviously beloved in this sort of massive, almost overwhelming way as we're seeing now. Mm-hmm. But I, I do think Dolly is low-key, like, a little slept on as, as a... It's, it's insane to say, but a little bit slept on- I agree. Yeah ... as, you know, that her musicianship is, is in some ways, uh, you know, can, can feel kind of incidental to her l- life and her personality and her charm and her wit. But I feel like her storytelling, uh, you know, storytelling is so crucial to country music as a genre. It is sort of the engine on which the whole thing runs, and, and Dolly had such a unique and, I think, empathetic voice as a writer and, and also voice, quite literally, as a singer. There's this just sort of lovely kind of ripple in her voice, a warble that I think only comes really from, from the holler. You know? Mm-hmm. It's like a real kind of country, uh, uh, sort of tension and texture to it. And, and I think in the eulogizing we're seeing of her, I, I would love it if that, uh, you know, if her skill and kind of acumen as a writer and, and as a performer took up a little more space in that conversation because I do think she was such an extraordinary musician. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, it's so funny. I've been thinking, trying to figure out where I put Her voice specifically. I was thinking about two people. I was thinking about Diana Ross Amanda Petrusich: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: And the, the Brazilian kind of, you know, again, culture hero, uh, Caetano Veloso. Like, um, people who are not vocal athletes, but they're... But it always so- sort of cuts through the tapestry of the song, where they're really delivering songs in a way that is unforgettable. Amanda Petrusich: Yeah, And it's funny, too, there's like a little irony there, I think, in the bigness of her life and the bigness of her presentation, and then, and then the relative smallness of her voice. And I mean smallness i- i- in the most complimentary way possible. I think she was an incredible singer. But there is something very sort of warm and tender and human in there that kind of works as an interesting contrast to, to, you know, the hair and the makeup and the rhinestones and the glam. I- it's, uh, to, to me, the tension between those things is so compelling. Naomi Fry: Yeah, that's s- such an interesting point, that contrast. And, you know, uh, Dolly Parton released some 3,000 songs over the course of her life. Mm. And today we ask you, uh, the frankly impossible task of bringing us three songs- Yeah. To talk, to talk about with us today. And I know, I know it's hard, and yet I also know that you're up to this challenge. Uh, because I, I have trust in you. So what are we gonna go with first? What, in this three song track list that you've prepared. Amanda Petrusich: Sure. I, I think impossible not to start with Jolene. Naomi Fry: Yes. Amanda Petrusich: Which is of course probably Dolly's most iconic song. She recorded it in Nashville in 1973. It was a huge hit the following year. CLIP: Jolene You know, she tells the story that she wrote this song after she realized her husband, Carl, was spending a lot of time at their local bank and seemed- Not the local bank. Not the... I know. Who among us has not- Yeah ... um, has not lost a man to the local bank. He seemed, I guess, uh, you know, beguiled by this sort of fair-skinned, red-haired teller. CLIP: Jolene You know, she has a lot of almost this sort of, um, uh, this, this sort of like throbbing, almost sort of sore admiration for this woman. Because Jolene is not the villain of the song. This, this sort of gets me every time I listen to that tune, and I've heard it, you know, a gazillion times in my lifetime, which is remarkable to me. I think it's much easier, you know, arguably much more fun, to kind of villainize a romantic rival. But it takes incredible empathy to do what Dolly's doing here. Mm-hmm. And, and that's the thing that always gets me about Jolene. It's that, it's, it's that Dolly, you know, she's, she's scared, but she's not angry. Yeah. And that's why, you know, like Beyoncé famously included a cover of Jolene on Cowboy Carter, and, and you know, Beyoncé can kind of do no wrong in many ways, but she, she tweaks the lyrics so that it becomes more confrontational and more aggressive, and it's sort of like- Mm-hmm ... I'd love to see you try. CLIP: Jolene - Beyoncé And to me, that cover doesn't work. Like, that, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is so beautiful and great about Jolene. which who can dig deep enough in themselves to find that? Vinson Cunningham: I think this is a willingness to go to this place of, you might call it abjection, you might call it longing, but just like to express Negative emotion, but, but e- express it in its full sort of beauty. I think that's the reason when other people get hold of her songs, they have to make them more, like, you know, macho in a certain way. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's like other- a lot of people can't go to this place of, um, frank desire, longing, like, irreconcilable emotions, and it just seems like this was, like, a, a s- a superpower. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Um, what is the next song that you've, you've brought us? Amanda Petrusich: So the next song I picked is The Bridge, which is a song from 1968 from a record called Just Because I'm a Woman, and, uh, you know, this is an era in which Dolly was just coming into her own as a solo performer after recording quite a few duets famously with Porter Wagoner. I love her vocal on this track. I, I think her voice has maybe never sounded more kind of clear and ringing and beautiful. CLIP: The Bridge But I also think this is another wonderful example of what people talk about when they talk about country songwriting being so rooted in storytelling. It's, it's a song about a woman who falls sort of hopelessly in love with a man, becomes pregnant, and then she's either betrayed or abandoned by him, and she's standing on the edge of that same bridge where they fell in love. The song ends abruptly. We can sort of fill in the blanks about what happens next. CLIP: The Bridge Naomi Fry: Oh, wow. Amanda Petrusich: Yeah. Naomi Fry: So it just ends- Yeah ... kind of, yeah, abruptly, as you said. Amanda Petrusich: You know, that was pretty provocative songwriting for a country singer in 1968 Naomi Fry: It also sounds, I have to say, listening to this, and again, I, I, I'm not, I wasn't familiar with the song. It's very post like, it sounds a little Stonesy. Amanda Petrusich: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Like it sounds a little like- Amanda Petrusich: Totally ... Naomi Fry: I don't know, She's a Rainbow or something. You know- Yeah ... there's a little bit of that like White Rabbit, uh- Amanda Petrusich: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Yes, yes. ... from 1967. Naomi Fry: It's like one of those Summer of Love, like one of those like post- Exactly ... '67 like songs. I- Yeah ... really feel that in the tonality of it. Amanda Petrusich: Right. Um- I Naomi Fry: mean, Amanda Petrusich: agreed. One, one- Naomi Fry: Yeah ... can Amanda Petrusich: imagine The Doors doing that song. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, or any of those bands. Uh- Yeah ... yeah, agreed. And I, and I think that's a sort of underconsidered, uh, you know, sound for her. Uh, but it worked. I mean, and, and, you know, Dolly, I'm curious actually about both of your takes on this. I, I think she was always really uncomfortable with the word feminist. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, I think she sort of evaded the label, or, or would even- Mm-hmm maybe actively resist it. But I, but I think in this era of her career in particular, she was giving voice to the female experience in a way that felt both unprecedented and sort of radical. again, I think sort of centering these stories that were, you know, at that time were not centered. Naomi Fry: I mean, there's something about not using the label, which of course I can understand how that might have been criticized, you know, by, by feminists or, you know, who wanted her to like just say the word, you know. Yeah. Say the word. Like, even when she was doing Nine to Five in 1980, which is of course kind of like a feminist, like, it's a comedy, but it's a feminist movie. Amanda Petrusich: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: She didn't say, you know, "I'm a women's liber," whatever- Right ... you know, like term of the time. And I understand how that might have been frustrating, but I also think there's something almost like generous about not making anyone feel excluded by using a label- Hmm ... that might, for a certain woman, have been off-putting, um- Hmm showing rather than telling. Look at the life I'm leading. L- look at the things I'm singing about. Uh, yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting conundrum, but I, I don't think it's like all bad, quote, unquote. Amanda Petrusich: No, no. Yeah. I mean, and ultimately- Yeah ... what you're saying, I think all of those things are much more significant, you know- Mm-hmm and, and meaningful. Naomi Fry: What is the last song that you brought us? Amanda Petrusich: The last song I brought you guys is called Little Bird, and this is really a minor song in her catalog, to be honest. I mean, I mean that literally in the sense that it's less than two minutes long. Mm. I've just, it's a personal choice for me. I've just always loved it so much. I, again, I love the kind of ripple in her voice here. I love the sound of her asking in this very earnest and almost guileless way for more time. CLIP: Little Bird I don't- maybe I'm being particularly, uh, emo because my daughter is starting kindergarten tomorrow. Aw. Aw. But I'm like, who among us, who among us doesn't have these mo- you know, where they just, you want more time, more beauty, more youth, whatever. Of course. You know, you just feel the sort of sand slipping through your fingers, and it's, yeah, it, uh, it, it just, that song hits me. In a minute, Lauren Michele Jackson on Dolly Parton and image making. Critics at Large from The New Yorker will be right back :: MIDROLL 2 :: Vinson Cunningham: We're wrapping up today with our fellow staff writer, Lauren Michele Jackson. Lauren hi! Lauren Michele Jackson: What's up? Naomi Fry: Hi. Lauren, where are you? Are you in Chicago? Are you here? Lauren Michele Jackson: I am in Chicago. I was, I actually just flew in yesterday evening because I was at the Olivia Rodrigo thing. Vinson Cunningham: You are, you are like my, like- ... like the, the foremost pop girly concertgoer that I know. Yeah, I mean, you have seen them all. You just, didn't you just see Ariana Grande live? Lauren Michele Jackson: I did see Ari. I just saw Casey. Um- but yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Lauren, I could go on and on about your work which I love. But the main thing we wanna ask you about today is something you’re especially attuned to, the art and machinery, of celebrity and image-making. You wrote a piece that we just adore called The United States of Dolly Parton. This is, uh, back in 2020. I love this piece. And I guess, you know, there's arguably nobody who's made her image in a more sort of deliberate, savvy, ironic fashion than Dolly Parton, before we jump in, I thought we could start out listening to a clip, this is an interview she did with Barbara Walters in 1978. CLIP: Barbara Walters So you talk in that lovely piece, Lauren, about a serious feminine brilliance that Dolly Parton displays, and I think it is on total display in that clip. Uh, what is it about that brand of femininity that Dolly Parton not only sort of inhabited, but p- played with so deftly that was kinda so hard for people, not, you know, the public, journalists, people like Barbara Walters, et cetera, to, to wrap their heads around? Lauren Michele Jackson: Um, every time I watch that, uh, clip, I am always so tickled by the way Barbara Walters, like, keeps pressing. Like, she will not- Naomi Fry: Yeah ... Lauren Michele Jackson: let it go. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Lauren Michele Jackson: And I feel like that interview now belongs to the genre of clip that circulates a lot now, where we have, like, ball-busting lady interviewer who, like, does not get it or is, like- doing a little bit of a misogyny versus, you know, virtuosic pop star that's actually doing something, or, you know, musical star who's doing something quite, um, canny. Um, but I also think it's kind of worth preserving the context of the moment in which that interview took place, which is in the late '70s, and if we think about second wave feminism- Mm-hmm and even kind of like a broad, generic sense, you know, you have people like a Barbara Walters type or Barbara Walters herself who are, like, contending with, you know, serious prejudices about the seriousness of their work and their craft. And so in some ways you can see the wheels turning and the confusion about someone like Dolly choosing to look the way she does, and it's almost not even about for her a confusion about, um, presentation, but why someone so talented would choose to present with the hair and the makeup and, you know, the cinched waist. Um, in a way that I, yeah, I think for, for Barbara Walters or, or someone like that seems, like, very superfluous. You don't have to look like this. You're talented. You're good at your craft, you know? She's almost implying, like, "Why don't you look like me?" Yeah. Who incidentally, you know, should be noted, like, she is not undone. Naomi Fry: No, that's the thing that's so interesting, right? Because it's not like Barbara Walters is sitting there, she's not like Andrea Dworkin or something. You know, she's not sitting there in, like, overalls Like her hair is blown out, like everything. Her makeup- Lauren Michele Jackson: She's wearing like a brooch, right? Yeah. Like Naomi Fry: a gold brooch or something. Lauren Michele Jackson: and I also keep coming back to this word that Dolly repeats a couple times, which is, which is choice. Dolly is saying, "I, you know, I choose to look like this. This is part of this grand theater of show business, you know, the big blonde hair and the pink lip and all the other accoutrement, because this is, you know, in some ways a facade, but also indicative of my realness." And I think one of the reasons why Dolly has become such a queer icon is kind of understanding how- The faux can speak to a certain kind of authenticity and realness about who she is as a performer and as a person. Naomi Fry: Was this kind of ahead of her time, do you think? I mean, nowadays this type of playfulness with the signifiers of femininity, whether it's, you know, and you mentioned this in your, in your piece, whether it's someone like Cardi B or, or, or Nicki or, you know, just, like, Ariana, Britney Spears in her heyday. You know, uh, y- so many different examples of, of, of, of pop stars. Lady Gaga, of course. Mm-hmm. Sabrina Carpenter, who had this kind of, like, exaggerated girly girliness. Um, do you think Dolly kind of, like, was a p- kind of an important precursor to these, to these women playing with their femininity in front of audiences, mass audiences? Lauren Michele Jackson: She has to be, right? Um, but I also do think there's something about genre specificity that is maybe relevant here. Like, I... Even as we have a kind of plethora of pop girlies, um, doing some version of, uh, showmanship, showgirl-manship, or whatever- ... um, uh, in public, um, I do think we, like, kind of still have these, um, sort of cemented notions about what being, like, a singer-songwriter or, like, an authentic or, like, a real musician is. Mm. Yes. But like coming out of a kind of, like, country music sensibility, coming out of a tradition that really venerates songwriting and craftsmanship and musicianship and playing your own songs and writing your own songs and performing your own songs, to also kind of embody the kind of artifice known to a sort of different domain of both musical performance and just theatrical performance in general, I do think was, like, really unique to her stardom and her performance. And this way that you do see You know, even people like, I don't know, like Mariah Carey or somebody who- Sure ... who, who really does like embody- Divas, like divas ... Naomi Fry: divas. Yeah. Yeah, divas. Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: It's so, you know, it's so interesting because on the one hand, there is, right, this total diva-dom, this attention to brilliant services, and at the same time, the women for whom Parton was perhaps a kind of capital V voice or on, on, as you say, are kind of her muses, I'm gonna quote you to you, "These are women tested by poverty and patriarchy who do what needs to get done and escape when it's time, even if the fleeing lands them in another bad situation that they'll soon need to escape. They're women who are wronged or possibly doing wrong, uh, finding a soundtrack to their own loves, et cetera." There's a balancing act b- between sort of her own brilliance and sort of defiance. Um, but she's reaching back to people who, who are not achieving that same great surface. And I, I, b- I just, I would love to hear you talk about just sort of how that form of songwriting that she advanced interacts with the great surface. Lauren Michele Jackson: Mm. Yeah. Something I was thinking about is that someone like Dolly, if she were Black, like would probably be called ghetto. Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Um, a word that has not only racial undertones but also class overtones as well, in the sense that on one hand, of course, she's asserting the uniqueness of her presentation, and yet also her taste level Is really reminiscent of the kinds of women, working class women, that she grew up around, and also still persist, right? Mm-hmm. These are the women who when they're getting dressed up, they're putting on their acrylic nails or their press-ons. Um, they're dipping their heads in peroxide, right? They're, like, putting on the big lip, and the big eyeshadow, and the big eyebrows. It's this, like, interesting, like, as you say, like, this interesting balance between on one hand she is, like, kind of the embodiment of the Tennessee Holler, even as she's, like, accruing so much capital, I mean, literally. Also culturally, right? And so I think in, it is in this way that she has become a feminine icon in a, in a kinda, like, walking, um, emblem of her own sound, while also regretfully to some perhaps, um, kind of skirting the question of how she identifies politically. Vinson Cunningham: A great clip. There've been so many clips circulating about Dolly these days. One of them you mention in your piece, and it's, um... And this goes to the, the, the bit about sort of a certain kind of, uh, working class aesthetics too, the, the acrylic nails of it all. She and Patti LaBelle are sort of washboard style scraping out a version of, uh, uh, that song Mama's Little Baby Loves Shortnin' Shortnin'. CLIP: Patti Labelle Naomi Fry: That's amazing. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. I mean, it's this kind of, you know, rogue femininity on display, but also, like, what would you say? Just a sort of improvisational genius. Like, you know, if there's an art to, as we s- or as we've been saying, like teasing out, if there's an art to being a celebrity, moments of humor and levity like that are so much of the substance of that performance. Lauren Michele Jackson: Right. I mean, I think, like One of the reasons why people love this clip so much, I love this clip of course as well, is like, you know, you have Dolly Parton and Patti LaBelle, like, sitting in these big, like, sparkly gowns- ... with like puffy sleeves. It's very, very '80s. They have the '80s hair, and yet, like seemingly kind of like on the fly, here they are, like harmonizing this Shortenin' Bread song, which is like a folk song. I think it's, it like hearkening back to like plantation days- Yeah ... which like maybe makes it like a slave song. Vinson Cunningham: Um- Paul Robeson has a great version, and so does Bugs Bunny, but con- please. Lauren Michele Jackson: Bugs Bunny, you know, one of our great minstrels. Um- Vinson Cunningham: Exactly ... Lauren Michele Jackson: and they're, like accompanied by, I mean, I have like acrylic nails on. I don't know if it's gonna catch, but like- Can you give us some Vinson Cunningham: Shortenin' Bread? Oh. There you go. There we go. Mom, a little baby loves something and something, et cetera. Lauren Michele Jackson: Right. And s- and, and, and it's like, you know, these two people who are absolutely virtuosic in what they do, who are often kind of not really thought about, you know, they kind of occu- occupy different regions in the cultural imagination for various reasons in terms of genre, in terms of race- Yeah um, united by like fake nails in a folk song. Naomi Fry: It's also just, like making, uh, making use, kind of like turning the seeming, seemingly frivolous into, you know, making it useful, right? Yeah. It's like kind of making do. It's like, "Oh, we don't have a banjo," or, "We don't have whatever other instrument. We have our voices, and we have our nails. You thought these nails were, like, stupid? Look what they can do." You know, kind of, kind of that, uh- yeah. Lauren, you just recently, just last night, returned from the Olivia Rodrigo, uh, Daisy Chain Festival in Irvine, California, and I read that there was a Dolly tribute where Rodrigo brought on Sarah McLachlan, and they dedicated a duet of Angel to Dolly Parton. Uh, did you see this by any chance? Lauren Michele Jackson: I did see this. I mean, Dolly was kind of heavy in the air for me at least being at the festival in part because of its mission as a philanthropic endev- endeavor, and basically a benefits concert for charitable organizations that support women and girls. And so yeah, I was like thinking about Dolly. I was thinking about how she really entwined her philanthropy with her artistry, which is something that I think we could say Olivia Rodrigo is, is picking up as, as a, as a mantle of sorts. Like a, a, you know, Rodrigo describes her, you know, she's spoken out politically about various causes, and she really describes it as like a thing that just artists are supposed to do and, and be about. Vinson Cunningham: You cannot know how happy we have been to have you- ... on Naomi Fry: our show. [a][b][c][d][e]Lauren, Vinson Cunningham: thank you. Naomi Fry: Thanks so much, Lauren. Lauren Michele Jackson: Thank you for having me. Naomi: I’m thinking about what Lauren said and the idea of Rodrigo sort of picking up politics that Dolly left behind. I think there’s more pressure than ever nowadays, Vinson I don’t know if you agree, for stars, to fall on one side of whatever political debate is happening especially partisan-wise. And I wonder if she belongs to a different – if she’s kind of the last great musician, popular musician, popular entertainer that was allowed to kind of remain in that ambiguity without it kind of being handed to her as a sort of failing, moral failing almost. Vinson: Yeah, and one way to say that she kind of skirted this line is to say that yes, there is a time for making statements taking stances, but the highest form of politics is simply being involved in life and being you know, I think it is good that children ought to read, And while that doesn’t often get heralded as politics, if politics is the art of being involved in the world you live in, I don’t think you can say that Dolly Parton skirted that higher perhaps responsibility. Naomi: Absolutely not, and it very well may be that she did much more politically, Just wth her work for the disadvantaged, her great philanthropy, and her generosity of spirit. Vinson Cunningham: Based on these c- conversations or just, don't know, any of this outpouring, is there a piece of Dolly Parton's art that you've been inspired to pick up in the, the next com- couple weeks? An album, one of her movies, anything like that? Naomi Fry: Well, um, I think what has emerged for me is that I want to read Dolly's memoir- Vinson Cunningham: Uh-huh ... Naomi Fry: from 1994, Dolly: My Life and Other Unfinished Business. Vinson Cunningham: You're a connoisseur of showbiz memoirs. Naomi Fry: I know. Exactly. I feel like, yeah, that's right. And I, and I've missed this one. I never read it. I do love a memoir from the '80s and '90s. Mm-hmm. I feel like there was a little bit more freedom then- Yeah ... even for very famous people. Some Vinson Cunningham: candor, yeah. Naomi Fry: There was a bit more candor than nowadays. Mm. So that's where I'm gonna be going next, I think. What, what about you? Vinson Cunningham: Well, you know, one album that got mentioned today is the relatively recent “Backwoods Barbie.” Naomi Fry: Backwoods Barbie. Vinson Cunningham: I am now inspired to check that, that album out. Naomi Fry: Okay. Okay. So that's what we're gonna do. Vinson Cunningham: This has been a very Dolly Parton episode of Critics at Large. Alex Barasch is our consulting editor, and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kutchman, and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. You can listen to all of our episodes anytime at newyorker.com/critics. Next week, our episode is all on the theme of, get ready, back to school. Join us for that.