Naomi Fry: This is Critics at Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Nomiki Fry. Vinson Cunningham: I'm Vinson Cunningham. Alex Schwartz: And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hello, my friends. Hello. Hey. Critics, hi. Well, Labor Day has come and gone, and now here we are, back to school time. Historically, I'm curious, what are your feelings about the first day of school? I Vinson Cunningham: love the first day of school. Alex Schwartz: Really? Always have. Vinson Cunningham: Always? Always have, yeah. My mother, shout out to my mother, obsessed with two things be- over everything: school and the fall. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: First through fourth grade I did in Chicago when we lived there for a little bit, and I remember being on the, the, the L train and her looking down at these leaves and being like, "Yeah, that's first day of school weather." Aw. And I always think about that- I love that ... you know, whenever, like, when it really, there's a snap, I'm like, "First day of school weather." Alex Schwartz: So great. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Alex? Vinson Cunningham: Alex? Alex Schwartz: Well, I'm just remembering, I, I also like the first day of school, and my birthday is early September, so it has a new year for me, a new year for school feeling. Trying to think of specifics. I do remember starting middle school, which at the time was, the start of middle school was seventh grade, which now would seem very late, and you know, what to wear, what to wear. And I remember one girl having said, "If it's above 72 degrees, everyone can wear shorts." And just thinking- Naomi Fry: And that was gospel Alex Schwartz: suddenly what? I mean, not even. I just thought- I mean, what are you talking about? ... what is happening? Naomi Fry: The, the thing, the thing about, like, someone saying, "Oh, everybody should wear X or Y," or like, "Oh, I heard she's gonna wear this or that, and, like, isn't that stupid?" You know, that saying, like, strikes fear in my heart. Alex Schwartz: Oh, no. Naomi Fry: I know. Maybe starting around fourth grade. I feel like the first, say, three years of schooling, I was probably excited in a way that wasn't kind of nervous. But I think kind of mid-elementary school- Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm ... Naomi Fry: it was mostly kind of like dread and, and worry. I mean, listen, I was really, I, I, in many ways I loved school, especially when it came to obviously college and then grad. Yeah. Like, I, I love, like, learning. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was excited. I, like, would look at the syllabi in advance and be like, "These, what are the books?" You know- That's great ... when it was stuff that I could choose- Yeah ... like, I was, I was like, oh, this is, you know, this is amazing. Vinson Cunningham: Right. But the first day of school is so much more than that, you know? It's like- It's everything bottled up ... it's social. It's this- Everything. Everything ... it's this, who am I gonna, who am I gonna be this year? Naomi Fry: I would say- Who am I gonna sit with? Vinson Cunningham: Who am I gonna be around? What's gonna- Naomi Fry: And I was afraid of math. Alex Schwartz: Well, that's a whole other ballgame. Vinson Cunningham: Was that part of your- It was now general anxiety? About the- Naomi Fry: I think so, yeah. Yeah? I was like, oh, shit, like- Vinson Cunningham: I'm still afraid of math ... Naomi Fry: no, yeah, I know, but now I don't have to do math. Yeah, Vinson Cunningham: yeah. Naomi Fry: But I was afraid of it. Alex Schwartz: So on that note, today our episode is all about the work and the pleasure of school. And we should say it is inspired by you, our listeners. In recent weeks, we've gotten a number of voicemails from teachers and also from students, which are all themed around school and education in some way or another. And that got us excited about doing an episode all about the back-to-school experience. So we're focusing on three voicemails. We're going to hear from a high school teacher who is desperate to combat apathy in her students. We're gonna hear from a poetry student who wants help explaining to his friends why poetry is great. And from a brand new teacher just starting out, who's looking for media that gets at the high highs and the low lows of a teaching career. So that's today on Critics at Large, that back-to-school feeling ________________ Okay, let's start right in. Here we go. Notebooks out. Pens up. Let's do it. Like I said, we've got three voicemails, and here's the first one from Jesse in Ontario, Canada. VOICEMAIL: Vincent, Nomi, Alex, what I love most about Critics at Large is how it reminds me of my experience as a university student, where I would get together with my peers and engage in rich, critical discussions about the texts we were reading for class, and getting excited to share our insights with each other. That experience was so valuable to me that I actually chose to become a teacher myself, and I now teach English literature and dramatic arts. And here's where I need your help. Over the past five years, I've noticed the apathy in my Gen Z students is rampant, and nothing seems to excite them anymore. So I would like some recommendations for texts that I can use with my high school students, who are in grades 9 to 12, that's going to help rid them of their apathy and make them feel as excited and passionate about literature as I always felt. I'm counting on you guys. Alex Schwartz: Damn, stakes are already very high. Naomi Fry: They're so high. Stakes are high. Alex Schwartz: Stakes are high. Great, great Vinson Cunningham: delivery, Jesse. I loved, I loved everything about Naomi Fry: it. Jesse, we're behind you. Alex Schwartz: I feel sad, Jesse. I feel sad hearing this. I know, I Naomi Fry: know, I know. Alex Schwartz: I just feel like apathy in high school is so hard because it makes me wonder, has it always been this way? Or, w- you know, are we, are we trying to find something that ignites the passion of reading that has never been lit before? Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Or is it a kind of sputtering flame that needs to be brought back to life? Naomi Fry: Can you, can you say more about this, Alex? Do you Alex Schwartz: mean- Well, I just mean if someone ... You know, I'm just thinking about- Like, the thing that is so exciting about reading, I think, or was for me at that age, let's say, in high school, was just the sense of like, "What? I get to do this? I get to, first of all, like learn whatever I want or, like read any taboo thing I want?" That was the, that was a huge part of the excitement. And so if the attitude is totally the opposite- Mm ... then I'm more likely to recommend something that's a little bit of like an easier access. Naomi Fry: I think, Alex, and this might be a little bit of a cheap trick, uh, what you said about taboo might be an entry point, because the, the internet is open to our youngsters to view any number of horrific Mm-hmm and outre and, and, you know, kind of like forbidden texts and pictures and ele- You know, it's like, it's not like you need literature for that. And yet, I think sometimes young people might be surprised that literature might also deal with things that aren't just, like boring or rote or, like buttoned up or, you know, what they imagine, like school might give them. Mm-hmm. You know? Um- I never taught high school so I don’t have that particular experience that you do Jesse, but I did teach young people, it’s like only a year between 12th year and freshman year of college. And I definitely had a lot of apathetic students. What I did when I was a teacher is I assigned Bret Easton Ellis' Lesson Zero, which is his debut novel from 1985, which is about young people. It's about basically 18-year-olds in the '80s in Los Angeles who are doing very bad things. You know, the- they're doing a lot of drugs. There's a lot of kind of like ambiguous sex. Um, and many of the students who I assigned this book to, they were surprised that this is like... You know- Mm-hmm ... students who weren't readers were like, "Oh, this is... I finished this in two hours." You know, they were like, they were like, "I read a book." You know? Mm-hmm. Kind of that sort of thing. I think kind of like opening the door to, to kids who might be like, "Pff, books, you know, I don't wanna read. I'm not interested in, in learning about what this means." A bit of a trick, but I, I think a useful one. Alex Schwartz: Shock 'em. I'm also a little bit worried that, um, that Jesse would get fired for assigning it in high school, but maybe not. Naomi Fry: Maybe for the 12th graders, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how progressive their school is. Maybe, it might Vinson Cunningham: need to be an elective, but still. Alex Schwartz: Yes. An elective, love that. You Vinson Cunningham: know? Alex Schwartz: Also, yeah, create an elective. Create some allure. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Now we're getting into the more administrative aspects. Naomi Fry: Yes, and yes, I should say, again, as I said, I, I never taught high school. I taught freshman English composition. Alex Schwartz: But I like that it's, it's a shock and awe strategy. Naomi Fry: It's a shock and awe strategy. Mm-hmm. And st- and students were consistently kind of like, "Whoa." Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Naomi Fry: You know? You shocked Alex Schwartz: and awed 'em. Naomi Fry: That was kinda satisfying to be like- So satisfying ... oh. Alex Schwartz: Yes. Naomi Fry: You know? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Yes. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Love that. Vincent- Uh ... do you have anything? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. You know, I, it's... I do have ideas about content, but like just about- Teaching, you know, you have to be the one out on the ledge. And teaching is also an educa- It's an edu- it's an education in many things. You know, here's some subject matter, here's what a poem is like, here's how you read a novel, et cetera. But it's also an education in the emotions and in the affections. It's like, what does it mean to be excited about something? And you have to be sometimes the dork, sometimes the whatever, to, like, get out there- Absolutely. Yeah ... to sort of establish a new frontier of you are allowed to be this excited about this kind of thing. We'll talk more about this a- across the episode, I'm sure, but teaching is so much a kind of performance, at least in my li- very limited experience of doing it. So, I- Naomi Fry: Not that limited, Vincent. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, but I mean, like- Naomi Fry: Yeah, I, I feel like you have an extensive teaching Vinson Cunningham: experience teaching one college class a week is very different than being somebody's high school English lit teacher, and I wanna be very respectful of that difference. Being somebody's high school English teacher is like, it's like Daniel Day-Lewis. It's like, I mean, it's method. Uh, the people that did that for me, I, I view with such, you know, whatever. I've talked about my English teachers on this podcast before. Um, that said, the things that I enjoyed the most when I was around that age were texts that needed a teacher precisely for this reason, right? Mm. Mm. Texts that- Love that. Yeah ... could be opened up. I remember reading The Odyssey and, um- My teacher at the time was talking about Odysseus is pictured as having, like, a l- a, like, being covered with, like, a big leaf. She's like, "You know, you know what, what needs a big leaf?" She's like doing all this, like, blue talk, you know? Yes. It was like a form of stand-up comedy. I'm like- And you're like, " Naomi Fry: Yes." ... Vinson Cunningham: I was like, "Wait, oh, we could talk about this?" Naomi Fry: She Vinson Cunningham: was working Naomi Fry: blue. Oh, Vinson Cunningham: yeah. She was working blue, and I was like- ... this is the sh- you know? Yeah. It was just like that, those, those moments of surprise. Naomi Fry: I mean, that's kinda similar to- Yeah ... to that. Yeah, it's like, oh, you can... Books are about sex? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, like, lessons, exactly. Books are about drugs? Naomi Fry: Exactly. Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: The other, I mean, another text that I r- I mean, a little bit before high school, but it's definitely, like, a high school level text was, um, Richard Wright's Black Boy, and I remember being on the way to school and the older kids being like, "Wait till you get- Mm-hmm to the page where he, like, does this," or, "You know, he's talking about dicks in there," you know? Mm-hmm, totally. It was like all this stuff and just the, like, oh man, I'm gonna, there's gonna be an experience in the classroom. Naomi Fry: Mm. Vinson Cunningham: Um, those were my favorite, those favorite moments because even if you are a nervous classroom participant, 'cause, you know, e- every teacher knows there's a difference between somebody who's apathetic and someone who just doesn't know how to do the thing, and you're teaching them how to do the thing, too. Like, you could jump in here, man. Get in. Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: You know? So texts that coax that facility out were always the best to me. And also admitting what you find beautiful. Like, you have to have something in there that you can say and, and show them in the moment. Like, man, that's beautiful. And whether they agree or not, just to be like, this is also a place to frankly admit your, like, loves is, I think, something that people don't quickly forget regardless of their- Response in the moment Alex Schwartz: I think this is glorious Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Also, I mean, could you just teach The Great Gatsby, Goddammit? Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Can Vinson Cunningham: you teach the best book Alex Schwartz: Best book ever. Vinson Cunningham: It's a Alex Schwartz: great book for teaching Vinson Cunningham: It, it, it's so good. Yeah. And it's so good to teach 10th Alex Schwartz: grade, perfect for 10th grade. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Just go in there in 10th grade. Vinson Cunningham: It's got symbols. It's got all the things we wanna learn how to do. How about you? Alex Schwartz: Do you think it hits in Canada? That's... One question I'm having is about Canada. Vinson Cunningham: They, they're in a moment where they need to understand Americans. Alex Schwartz: Oh. Vinson Cunningham: No better time. Alex Schwartz: I'm so sorry about that. Um, so true. Yeah, I love everything you guys are saying because I think, I think, I think this is, this is, like, a good formula for the re-engagement. Naomi Fry: Mm. Alex Schwartz: A little bit of illicit- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: substances. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: A little bit of teacher's passion coming in- Mm ... and getting everybody worked up. Um- Just Naomi Fry: don't get fired. Alex Schwartz: Just don't get fired. Right. Yeah. Yeah, walk that line. Walk that line. Walk Naomi Fry: that line. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. You know, I was thinking, like, I think a challenge is really good. Yeah. Um, 'cause I know there's been a kind of w- conventional wisdom maybe that you wanna make things easy, so to make things appealing to someone who's not so inclined to read. Mm-hmm. Like, we're, we're being hit all the time with there's a crisis in reading articles- Mm-hmm ... which are really freaking me out. Yeah. Um- Yeah ... like, by all reports, reading a- and literacy is just totally plummeting. I was just reading one about the New York City school system, where analyzing small passages of text has been prioritized in testing over a greater- comprehension. So- Mm-hmm ... teachers were saying w- in this article I was reading, "We don't even, we can't even assign a book anymore because it doesn't get us where we need to be going, and it's, like, utterly de- depressing." So I was thinking back to what, like you, Vinson, worked for me- Mm-hmm ... as a student. One that's a little bit more of a kind of user-friendly, which I don't think needs to be necessarily extensively pored over in heavy discussion, but is just a wonderful book to read and is by a Canadian treasure, is the book A Complicated Kindness by Miriam Toews, by Canada's own- Mm Miriam Toews. Amazing writer. And this is a book she wrote in 2004. It's a coming-of-age novel. It's actually b- about a character named Nomi, if you can believe it. Naomi Fry: Nomi? Alex Schwartz: Nomi Nichol. Naomi Fry: Pronounced- Alex Schwartz: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: as Alex Schwartz: such? It's, it's not spelled with an A. It's just N-O- Oh my God ... M-I. And she's 16, and she lives in a tiny Mennonite town in Manitoba, and she is going through a lot of shit. She, um, is, there's a lot of anger and distress in her life about her family situation. She has an older sister who suddenly has just disappeared. It's not clear what's happened. She's obviously living in a very repressive religious environment, um, because she's part of a Mennonite community. Miriam Toews is just one of the realest writers for me. She can be so, she is so funny, such a funny writer, but she writes about such serious stuff. And of course, high school students are very good at detecting bullshit. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: This is a writer, like, totally without bullshit, who's not writing to pander or condescend, but is actually reinhabiting the experience of being this age in this very particular setting. But it's a very satisfying novel for that reason. I could kind of see that as a- Door opener. Yeah, a door opener. Mm-hmm. Just get it assigned. Mm-hmm. Get it assigned and go for it. Mm-hmm. In a minute, some texts that get at what being a teacher is really like. Critics at Large from The New Yorker will be right back ::MIDROLL:: Vinson Cunningham: Before we get back to the conversation, listeners It's that time again. We're working on another I Need A Critic episode. We've come to really love this series because it gives us a chance to hear from you. Alex Schwartz: Oh, yeah, you all know the drill at this point, but for anyone who doesn't, don't fear. All you have to do is record a voice memo on your phone with a specific cultural question that we can help you with. Maybe you're looking for the perfect book to read after you just had a baby and you have no attention span or time. Maybe you wanna know whether book clubs are actually helpful. Maybe you want an example in media, the movies, what have you, of an actually happy relationship. Naomi Fry: I mean, who can tell really what you come up with, and we can't wait to find out. You've got questions. We've got answers. Hit us up. Send your voice memos as always to themail@newyorker.com with the subject line, critics. And now back to the episode. We're all students. Now, some of us are also teachers, or have been in the past. No mean Vincent specifically. I actually would love to teach. Someone ask me to teach. I'm just throwing that out there. Um, did any- You would be- Aside from that first grade teacher ... a Naomi Fry: great teacher. You'd be a great teacher. Alex Schwartz: I'm wondering for you guys, did anything surprise you about making the switch from student to teacher? Naomi Fry: It's hard for me to be in charge. And, like, boundaries are hard for me. Like, telling people what to do is hard for me. I always used to be like, "If you don't mind, could you also read this, you know, this other..." Um, but I will tell you this If I f- sense that someone wasn't respectful of my authority, no matter how loosely held- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah Naomi Fry: then I would, I would, like, get pissed. Alex Schwartz: Ooh. Oh. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Like, don't fuck with me. Alex Schwartz: So you, you were able to reach a no more Mr. Nice Guy place. Naomi Fry: I... Yes, if pushed. Alex Schwartz: If pushed? Naomi Fry: If pushed. Alex Schwartz: Love knowing that. Not surprised, but delighted- Yeah ... to hear that about Naomi Fry. Vincent, I've heard raves about your teaching. Vinson Cunningham: Have you? Alex Schwartz: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Uh, that's nice. Thank you. Um, it's very hard to do, and what Naomi said is profound. As Naomi likes to say, we do need a strong leader. And, like- I... Absolutely ... in the, in the classroom, authority is a gift- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Vinson Cunningham: to know, like, I'm saying what I want you to do- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Vinson Cunningham: and how I want you to do it, and I'm being very clear about that. Having control, I think that's the thing that took, it took the longest for me- Yeah ... to understand about the, the, that, this activity. So that is really, really good. The other thing is connected, which is, like, you never know as a student how well the teacher wants you to do and how nervous they are about themselves, like how well they want to do. You think that you're there being like, "You know, uh, I better have something to say," da, da, da, da. The t- the, the teacher feels that so much worse, and they're the... And to your point, they're the one in charge, so nothing... If they're not the prime mover, it ju- you know, it can just be so nerve-wracking. Your teacher is often very, like, afraid. And, um- Naomi Fry: I Vinson Cunningham: totally- And therefore- Naomi Fry: Yeah, it's so true ... Vinson Cunningham: and because of nervousness, what happens with nervousness, whether you're on stage or in a classroom, is that the, the, the prime difference experientially, like, in the classroom, is relationship to time. Time is bending, man. Oh, wow. It's a rollercoaster. The first five minutes feel like three hours and you're like, "I cannot believe. I, I'm gonna have to just leave the classroom because I, I did all my stuff." You're so nervous 10 minutes in. And then if it, if it's working, you know, please, God, minute 15, something happens fast. And then by the end you didn't say all the stuff you wanted to say. So I mean, just the relationship to minute by minute, the clock is so different. And I've, I've done everything. I've stood in front of the clock so I can't see it. I've stood across from it so I can see it every second. I've tried everything. But the clock, relationship to the clock is to me, the prime difference. I leave some seminar and I'm like, "I was in there all day." You know? It's like a boxing match. Um, so you know, treat your teachers well, man. They're going through stuff up there. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. All right. Let's move on to our next question, which is definitely in conversation with what we're talking about. This is Lily. VOICEMAIL: Hi, critics. I absolutely love the show. I listen every week. Um, and my question for you guys is about teaching. I have recently become a teacher, and it is really amazing, but super full-on, very stressful. And it seems that a lot of people in my life don't really understand it, and I was wondering if there are any bits of media, especially books, um, or movies, that depict the feeling of being a teacher, like the highs and lows, how intense it can be. Like, those kinds of feelings. I would love something that I can go to when I'm feeling bogged down, something I can relate to. That would be really good. So thank you. Vinson Cunningham: Thank you. Naomi Fry: Thank you, Lily. Vinson Cunningham: And congratulations on starting a new chapter in your life. It's so exciting. Absolutely. Yeah. I swear to God, I thought about this for so long, and then I was like, my real answer is the Natalie Portman film Black Swan. Naomi Fry: Wait, you mean with the Frenchman? The, Vinson Cunningham: the- Uh, she's a ballerina ... Naomi Fry: Yes. Vincent Cassel? No, but I mean, the, you have the Vincent Cassel character? Vinson Cunningham: The, the- Y- no, I mean Natalie Portman. Like, the performance. Oh. It's about the psychodrama of performance, and the and admitting that there is a m- like, a multiplicity of selves. And it's like, who, moment to moment, must I be? What Naomi Fry: a take. Wow. What a take. Now I've heard it all. Vinson Cunningham: That was the, my real answer. My, my- Love Naomi Fry: that movie, by the way ... Vinson Cunningham: l- a lighter answer is a recent movie which I really like, and I think it's silly but also very heartwarming, and has one of my favorite actors in it, because he's also very silly and very heartwarming. It's Paul Giamatti in The Holdovers. Alex Schwartz: Oh, yeah, The Holdovers. That's right. Oh, I haven't, I still Vinson Cunningham: haven't watched that. It's about this teacher- Yes ... who is sort of an outcast even among, among the teaching ranks, but also kind of a figure of fun and teasing by the students. He, like, you know, he doesn't smell good, he doesn't look good. We come to know that he was also a, a student at the school, and now they're the holdovers. They're, th- there, there's a couple of kids and him who have nowhere to go on Christmas break- Mm-hmm ... for various reasons. And w- w- what can I say? It warms the heart. And what it, uh, teaches you is that- And this is, you know, this is, uh, intrinsic in so many theories of teaching. If you read, um, John Dewey's Democracy in Education, it's all about how teaching is- it rests upon, it depends upon an emotional response first. This is why we talk about beauty. You know, you got, you, you have to strike an emotional chord, and then something opens up. And this movie is kind of like about how much care and emotion and, you know, frankly, love has to go into teaching, otherwise you're not doing it. And Paul Giamatti learns that. The students learn that. It's a very sweet movie. And, um, we've been being like, after we watched it, we're like, "Oh, I'm gonna watch this every Christmas." It's like in the Christmas- Oh, wow ... it's in the Christmas rotation, uh, and it's also a very sweet movie about teaching. Alex Schwartz: That's such a good call. I completely forgot about the holdovers, not in general, but in this category. That's so true. Yeah, there's this kind of... Paul Giamatti is playing such a role that he's just grown into. He's the curmudgeon. Mm-hmm. And no, yeah, you don't have to like me, but you're gonna respect me. Yeah. And of course, no one does either. No one Vinson Cunningham: does. Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Finding the human in himself and the boys finding the human in him is part of the whole transformation. That's a great answer. Also, Black Swan is in- just incredible. Vincent says so much about you. The hall of mirrors. How you view, and how you view this vocation. Naomi Fry: I know, because that is, that is melodrama. I'm a little bit worried. That, I know. That is Vinson Cunningham: really- It's, it, it is hard. It is a hard thing to do, man. Alex Schwartz: And it's a performance. Vinson Cunningham: And, you know. Alex Schwartz: And, Naomi Fry: and maybe- And Mila is, like, s- maybe slightly skinnier. Maybe she's also having sex- Yeah ... with Vincent Cassel. You like... You know, it's, it's a lot. Vinson Cunningham: It's Naomi Fry: a lot. And that is what being a teacher is all about. Vinson Cunningham: That's what being a teacher's about. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. It might drive you to the very brink of sanity and then push you over it, is what I'm getting from that pic. Vinson Cunningham: Paranoia and mangled toes. Yeah. Alex Schwartz: That's Vinson Cunningham: teaching. Alex Schwartz: I love this question, 'cause it really made me think that this must be one of the really underrepresented areas. Like, basically everybody goes to school. Mm-hmm. Obviously, many fewer people are teachers, and there are so many works, campus novels and so on, about the experience of being a student. But I really feel that there's a dearth about the experience of teaching. Mm-hmm. There's a dearth, I say. Not a dearth. And it's a, it's a hideous dearth, and someone needs to get on it. So the thing that popped into my head is this movie, The Class, from 2008. I haven't seen it in a little while. Is it Naomi Fry: the French movie? Alex Schwartz: It's a French movie. I Naomi Fry: remember that movie. You Alex Schwartz: remember this movie? Naomi Fry: I do. It was in film form, I believe. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, it won the Palme d'Or. That's how I remember it. It's definitely a film form movie. But it's about exactly what you want, Lily. It's about the high highs and the low lows. It's a fictional movie about a teacher in Paris at an inner city school, very diverse class, full of what we would call underprivileged kids, who is teaching them and going through the triumph and the big struggle of getting this class to cohere and getting them to learn stuff. And it was directed by Laurent Cantet. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: And it stars this non-actor, François Bégaudeau, who wrote the novel that the book is based on himself as a teacher. And basically everyone in the cast are amateurs, and the standouts are, a- actually, Bégaudeau is, is really great as the main teacher. But the cast is all amateur kids, high school kids, and they're great, too. And the thing that I think makes this an interesting movie is, of course, there have been a number of kind of, like, white savior-esque teaching texts. Um- Mm-hmm ... what is interesting about this movie is there are a lot of challenges that both sides undergo, that the students undergo, but also the teacher undergoes, and there are mistakes he makes, like bad ones as well, um, offensive ones and painful ones. And so it's about grappling with that, and obviously also about grappling with difference. Like, how do you cohere? How do you cohere as a unit, as a class, which is kind of this, like, outside the family, maybe the- ... the unit, you know, the kind of foundational unit being a class, of course, one that's going to dissolve because next year you'll be in a different class or whatever it might be. Um, yeah, how do you get people to care, and how do you understand them and admit that you're wrong? Mm-hmm. So definitely if intensity is what you're looking for, I think this is a good choice. Naomi Fry: Okay. One of my favorite Simpsons episodes is when Lisa meets the substitute teacher, Mr. Bergstrom. Alex Schwartz: Ooh, tell us more. Naomi Fry: You, you don't remember this at all? Alex Schwartz: I don't. Naomi Fry: Okay. I have a clip. I'm Alex Schwartz: so sorry. Naomi Fry: Lisa Simpson, you are probably familiar, she's the smart kid, both in her family and in school too. She's like the nerd, right? And no one understands her. She wants to learn. She wants to break free of the confines of her family and of her situation. But kind of she has no interlocutor for that, because teachers, parents, peers, no one is answering her call for, for kind of like love of culture and love of learning. And one day a substitute teacher, voiced by Dustin Hoffman, uh, enters the class Alex Schwartz: So Cowboy has just entered and is now shooting- ... yes, the teacher. CLIP: The Simpsons Naomi Fry: And he's in. He's in. So he's so in, and- This seems to be interesting ... it's just the most- So it develops, you know, obviously Lisa becomes his, uh, uh, becomes his favorite student. She is, like, totally in love with him. He, he knows things that she never believed an adult can know. And then he has to leave because he has to, like, go teach elsewhere, and she runs after his train, and he gives her a piece of paper that says, "You are Lisa Simpson." Just, like, look at the, look at that- Yeah ... you know, piece of paper when you feel like you don't know who you are or where you're going. And he gives her, the, uh, the teacher gives her the gift of believing there's a life outside of her current circumstances, and it's one of the most beautiful examples of kind of what a teacher can c- what a good teacher can do when they come into your life. That's Vinson Cunningham: very beautiful. It also reminds me of an essay that maybe we should shout out on this episode, which is by our colleague Marvay Emre that's called Are You My Mother? And it's about- Oh, I haven't read that ... it's about sort of applying the matrix of transference and countertransference, the psychological concepts, to the classroom- Mm-hmm that there are, that, like, eros and l- l- love and Naomi Fry: mutual Vinson Cunningham: interest is part of the dynamics of a classroom- Mm-hmm ... and that a teacher is always managing those relationships, and the way that M- Mr. Bergstrom is- Yeah ... sort of using his cha- charisma and appeal to- Mm ... to kind of relate to Lisa Simpson. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: I thought that was a really great piece, uh, because I think it's a true observation. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: You know, one further thing occurs to me, which is just, Lily, I don't know if you know Dead Poets Society. Do you know it? Watch it. Check it out. Naomi Fry: I mean, that is the classic- Alex Schwartz: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: of, like, Alex Schwartz: a Naomi Fry: charismatic- And it's drama ... teacher who changes the lives of his students. Alex Schwartz: We're trying to think out of the box, but go right to the box maybe. Naomi Fry: Yeah, maybe you need to go, to start in the box. Alex Schwartz: Start in the box. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: We've heard from teachers. In a minute, a student who's trying to prove to his friends that poetry is actually good. Critics at Large from The New Yorker will be right back. ::MIDROLL:: Okay. Moving on to our final listener VOICEMAIL: Hi, critics. This is Harry calling from Providence, Rhode Island. I'm a big fan of the show. Uh, I'm a graduate student, and I study poetry. And when I tell people that, a response I often get is, "I don't like poetry." Hmm. Um, and I've found that the best way to counter that response, or at least to help explain to people why I enjoy poetry, is to just read them a poem. So I am asking all of you to pick the poem that you think would best explain to someone who doesn't like poetry why it's worthwhile, and then, uh, to read it to us. Vinson Cunningham:This is a great question. And you know, it's hard to know what poem will grab someone who doesn't like poetry. But I will just tell you the poem that did it for me. It was certainly my first favorite poem, if that makes sense. I’m not gonna read the whole thing, but maybe for each of our picks we can just read the opening lines. So here’s “Theme for English B” by Langston Hughes. “The instructor said, "Go home and write a page tonight and let that page come out of you. Then it will be true." I wonder if it's that simple. I am 22, colored, born in Winston-Salem. I went to school there, then Durham, then here to this college on the hill above Harlem. I am the only colored student in my class. The steps from the hill lead down into Harlem through a park. Then I cross St. Nicholas, 8th Avenue, 7th, and I come to the Y, the Harlem branch Y, where I take the elevator up to my room, sit down, and write this page. It's not easy to know what is true for you or me at 22, my age, but I guess I'm what I feel and see and hear. Harlem, I hear you. Hear you, hear me, we two. You, me, talk on this page.” And the poem goes on to sort of continue this correspondence almost between the speaker of the poem and his teacher. And it’s a great poem and what I love especially about it, even more now than I did back then when I was a kid and I first read it, is that it’s about how a prompt Write this, the necessary of writing, creates a place, and this is what I think poetry deeply is, It presents itself as monologue, but really it's a place where through imagination or through rhythms that you pick up on the street or whatever, conversations can happen. Langston Hughes, like, he's a great poet, whatever, but it's not like all of his poems are my favorites. But that one is just like, I don't know. I went to school in Harlem when I was a kid, so it was just like someone describing streets that I'd been on. I don't know, just knowing that a liter- a form Can hold experiences that are not yours, but resemble yours in a such a way that like, oh, yeah, this guy's dead, and I'm still meeting him. The voice is so clear and so true. I think that's, you know, that's what it's all about. Alex Schwartz: That was gorgeous. You know, one thing that I love about that choice, Vincent, is how discursive it is, and how- Yeah ... it is just so much about the voice, and a really natural sounding voice. As if, as you just said, as if the voice of the poet is right there with us in the room. Yeah. And I do think that sometimes when people say blanket things like, "I don't like poetry"- they're thinking of poetry perhaps as a really removed form, or a really abstracted form, or a really rigid form. Like, something that can't accommodate a more, uh, intense or vibrant experience. And so you just chose the perfect poem to, to blow all of those- Yeah ... assumptions up. And, uh, Harry, I think your friends who don't like poetry should, should listen to that reading. Naomi. Naomi Fry: I mean, I mean, guys, you know me, I don't really like poetry. Damn. But- That's so good ... no, no, no, no. Upset. That's so good. But, but, but, but- Upset with Alex Schwartz: our little class Vinson Cunningham: here. Yeah. Naomi Fry: But- Vinson Cunningham: We're all, we're all here, you know? Naomi Fry: But of course, of course that's not correct. Of course now that I, you know, listen to this Langston Hughes poem, I'm like, "Of course I like that." You know? But it's just, I mean, poetry can be removed, and can be, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. There are different, poetry is a lot of different things. And I think- Sure, yeah ... of course I gravitate, when I think about poetry and poetry that I've liked, of course I gravitate towards the type of poetry that, you know, th- in this example that Vincent just read, which is talky, you know, uh, juicy with details. Um, I mean, relatable is such a stupid word, but you know what I mean. It's like, it's like, it's about w- which is also what I am often drawn to when I think of what I like about a novel. And so I was thinking, "Okay, what should I bring to our little kind of seminar here thinking about poetry?" And I was thinking, "Oh, okay, my friend Ariana Reines, who is a contemporary poet and very prolific contemporary poet, and who I like very much as a, as a person, but her poetry too speaks to me." And I, you know, I have several- Alex Schwartz: She's going to the text. Naomi Fry: I have- There it is ... yeah, I have several, several books of hers. A very Vinson Cunningham: gorgeous volume. Naomi Fry: Uh, yeah. This is- A nice Alex Schwartz: Kelly green. Vinson Cunningham: Kelly Naomi Fry: green. Yeah. This next one. This is from Mercury, which came out originally in 2011. Let's see. This, this poem is called Lull, but it's, it's, the way it's spelled is two Ls in the beginning and two Ls in the back. Mm. So it's kind of like the end. Vinson Cunningham: you wanna just read us the first few lines to give us a sense? “Joan Didion and I are in her summer place. She serves me what she calls a Hawaiian burrito, which is wrapped in both flour and corn tortillas. Joan goes on and on about Hawaii and burritos and culture, how skinny I look, as in drastic and sick. Skeletal women always do this. "Oh, Joan," I say, "I don't look that bad, do I? Auschwitz bad?" Smiling much more than is sincere. Plump and game, I remain nevertheless a woman. As in, I know spite when I feel it.” Vinson Cunningham: hmm. Naomi Fry: There's a lot of kind of thinking about what it feels to be a woman in a body compared to other bodies in, in- Mm-hmm ... the world, in the space, and how that links to kind of like spirit or kind of like what you are inside versus what you are outside, and how one accesses the other. And, um, I would, Harry, I would recommend, you know, I mean, you're, might very well be very familiar with Ariane's, Ariane's work. But, uh, for those of you who aren't, uh, I think that's a, a great and interesting... In the same way, I just feel like such a populist, like, I'm like, th- give the students stuff about drugs. Uh, you know, show them The Simpsons I'm like, or whatever. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Totally. I mean, that w- Nomi, that was my first reaction to this question as well. The, the first thing that popped into my mind was a book by the poet Sharon Olds called Odes, which is, has a whole bunch of different odes to things you don't expect, to body parts- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm um, to the penis, to the clitoris, to tampons, to douche bags. And I was like, Harry- Oh, good stuff ... give them Odes. Mm-hmm. But then I thought, let me go in a little bit of a different direction. 'Cause if we're thinking about, like I, I do very much enjoy that book. Um, but if I'm thinking about what really sits with me and beguiles me- Mm-hmm and has that kind of compressed, stringent, poetic quality, I think of Louise Glück, the American Nobel laureate, and her intensely cerebral poems that are almost always also about the body. Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: And her unpitying way of writing about experience and the great beauty of her language, which really demands- Accuracy of representation above all. And, uh, a book of hers that I love, there are many, um, but it's a book called The Wild Iris, and it's a lot of poems about flowers, and it's not about being pretty and ornamental. So it's about nature and living and death and confronting the bigness of reality, but through flowers. So here's a poem called The Red Poppy. "The great thing is not having a mind. Feelings? Oh, I have those. They govern me. I have a Lord in heaven called the sun, and open for him, showing him the fire of my own heart, fire like his presence. What could such glory be if not a heart?” Vinson Cunningham: Great reading voice. Alex Schwartz: Ugh. Vinson Cunningham: That was great. Alex Schwartz: You know, it's so hard to read poems. Like, you guys did such a great job. It's a muscle. It's so hard, 'cause you- It's hard ... wanna kind of, you're like the enjambment, and where do I... But the line, "The great thing is not having a mind"- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... Alex Schwartz: coming from a flower. This is a poem in the voice of a poppy, guys. Yeah. "The great thing is not having a mind. Feelings, oh, I have those, they govern me." Those lines are in my head all the time, because unfortunately, I do have a mind, and it also governs me, and so do my feelings. So again, like for, for Glick and her poetry, so much is about the body trying to leave the body. She's written a lot about anorexia, which she experienced as a younger person. Um, and here's someone, something that is all body, trying to contend with that experience, but also to make some kind of intellectual sense of it, Ooh, I really, I actually have, I have chills. Naomi Fry: I love it. Guys, I like poetry now. Vinson Cunningham: Beautiful. Alex Schwartz: I mean, look, we can't like it all. See, Harry, it works. It's just like we like movies, we don't like them all. Naomi Fry: You're so right. Alex Schwartz: Well, this was really fun. Vinson Cunningham: It was fun. Naomi Fry: Let's do it again sometime. Alex Schwartz: Absolutely. Before we go, as surely as summer must turn to fall, treasured colleagues move on to new things. And this week, we're saying goodbye to a very beloved, dear, and wonderful member of our show, Alex Barasch- Yes ... our editor and all around partner in crime. Alex Barasch has been with us since the beginning of Critics at Large. If you've listened to our horror episodes, you know his dear and delightful voice. Mm. And his DNA is baked into every show we've done so far, and it always will be. Alex, we love you. Thank you so much, and go get 'em. Vinson Cunningham: We love you so Naomi Fry: much. We love you so much, Alex. I'm so sad, but happy for you. Alex Schwartz: This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barasch is our consulting editor, and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kuchman, and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandi, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. And as always, you can find all of our episodes at newyorker.com/critics ​