Naomi Fry: What would be your most valuable skill, do you think, in a survival situation? What do you bring to the proverbial table? Alex Schwartz: So little- ... Naomi Fry: that it's hard for me even to Alex Schwartz: think Naomi Fry: of Alex Schwartz: a thing. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Absolutely, me too. I was like, "Oh, it's gonna be one of those things where, like, I'll be like, 'Nothing. Uh, less than nothing.'" Alex Schwartz: We're three indoor cats here. Naomi Fry: Oh. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: That's so Vinson Cunningham: true. I mean, I could make up a pretty good, uh, campfire song. Naomi Fry: Okay. Vinson Cunningham: You know, like morale after, after all the ordeals in which I would be no help. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: I could really, I could get a round of something going. Alex Schwartz: Okay. Naomi Fry: Okay. I like it. When I think about myself in the wild, I think of my figure curled up into the tiniest ball possible, praying. Just praying. Yeah, maybe praying. Maybe with a power of prayer is what I would bring to the table. Alex Schwartz: Okay. I like it. Naomi Fry: I mean, that's something, Alex Schwartz: right? I like it, but you know what? Sometimes you don't know until you're tested, until you're cast away- ... like Tom Hanks. Naomi Fry: Much like Tom Hanks. Alex Schwartz: You just don't know until the transformation comes upon you. Vinson Cunningham: This is Critics at Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Vinson Cunningham. Alex Schwartz: I'm Alex Schwartz. Naomi Fry: And I'm Naomi Fry. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Yesterday was a big day for the pod. Alex Schwartz: Oh. Tell them. Naomi Fry: So- Tell them what happened. Yeah. So I don't know if you guys recall, when we had our Blockbuster-centric episode, uh, a couple months back- Mm-hmm um, I excitedly spoke of a trailer for the movie Heart of the Beast, starring Brad Pitt and a dog. CLIP: This is Odin. He's a highly trained combat K9. Naomi Fry: Brad Pitt is a soldier returning to the United States. He has a trusty dog as his closest companion. They crash land in a un- inhabited terrain of Alaska, and need to make their way back on foot to civilization. CLIP: Good job, buddy. 58 miles. No one's coming for us. Naomi Fry: I didn't know if I would get to see this movie. I know I'm an agent of my own fate, but I didn't know if I would actually go there, and yesterday was the day where I went there, and not only did I go there- ... Vincent as well- Vinson Cunningham: I was there ... Naomi Fry: joined, and Alex, do you wanna, do you wanna discuss what happened with you- Well- vis-a-vis Heart of the Beast? Alex Schwartz: Yeah, I'll just- Uh ... I'll just say this. I was so taken with anticipation for- ... Heart of the Beast- ... tagline, "It's not who you live for, it's who you die for"- Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: that I had an anxiety dream the night before our scheduled screening, preview screening of Heart of the Beast, in which I had seen another Brad Pitt movie, but not one featuring a dog, and woke up on pod recording day to realize I had seen the wrong Brad Pitt movie, and I confessed this to my pod mates, and then- Yep as it came to pass, I completely mistook the time of the screening for Heart of the Beast, and was nowhere near the heart or the beast at the time that the screening began. Naomi Fry: Your dream, your dream came true. AKA Gods Own Times Square, AMC 42nd Street. Alex Schwartz: I was very far away from that place. So I have not seen Heart of the Beast, and- Oh, my I'm excited to hear what you guys thought about it. Just fill me in. The- I can't wait to hear more ... Naomi Fry: the telltale heart. Alex Schwartz: Oh. Vinson Cunningham: Of, of the beast. Naomi Fry: Of the beast. Okay, so obviously this is not the first movie or the first text that deals with, like, a survival story. Yeah. You know, man in the wilderness. There are so many examples of this genre. Do you have any favorites, you guys, of this? Alex Schwartz: Oh, yeah. Vinson Cunningham: I mean, Gilligan's Island. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Let's not forget. Let's Alex Schwartz: start there. Vinson Cunningham: O- of course, just plain old Survivor. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: What else? Alex Schwartz: Robinson Crusoe? Vinson Cunningham: Rob- Robinson Crusoe. Alex Schwartz: Robinson Crusoe. I mean, and, and Cast Away, which is the, Robert Zemeckis's modern Robinson Crusoe story. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, 127 Hours. Don't forget that James Franco- Oh, my God ... was nominated for an Oscar trying to saw his own arm off, and succeeding as real life- figure, Aron Ralston, who did the same thing. Um, how about The Revenant? Leo, the bear, need I say more? Lost, we've heard of it. Lost. Into The Wild. Naomi Fry: Into The Wild. Alex Schwartz: Famously not out again. Vinson Cunningham: They're all there. Naomi Fry: I mean, I simply love William Steig's Abel's Island, which is the, basically the Robinson Crusoe story, but about a mouse, like a pampered mouse. There's a storm, he ends up on an island. He spends a year on the island kind of like toughening up, and then returns to civilization. Mm. Love that children's book. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, I think these themes are all over children's literature, and we can talk about why. Uh, The Boxcar Children, Lord of the Flies famously. Oh, yeah. Also, reality TV has become a huge zone for survivalist interest and obsession. Mm-hmm. I mean, Vincent, you of course mentioned Survivor- Mm-hmm which is the ur-text. That's the one. This genre is going very strong. Naomi Fry: Absolutely. So today on the show, we are going into the wild. We're gonna be talking Heart of the Beast and our favorite survival stories. And w- we're gonna be thinking about why this perennial struggle of man versus nature is still so exciting. You know, in, in our hyper-developed day and age, right, why do we return again and again to the raw, stripped-down tales of survival? Like, why do we love them so much? So that’s today on Critics at Large. What survival stories tell us – and should we listen. ________________ What is the formula we're working with here when we talk about tales of survival? Alex Schwartz: Something has gone horribly wrong. Yes. And here you are needing to make it through and just keep surviving. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: That's kind of it. Maybe you're on a desert island, maybe you're in the remote woods. Naomi Fry: You might also be lost at sea. There was this great bestseller last year. Mm-hmm. Uh, Sophie Elmhurst, uh- Alex Schwartz: Marriage at Sea. Naomi Fry: Oh, A Marriage at Sea, about a British couple who decided to, you know, build a boat. A whale destroyed their boat, and there they were- Hmm ... on a raft- Hmm ... surviving- Hmm ... with only each other and a couple of, like, cans of food to keep life and limb together. Alex Schwartz: You know what that makes me think of? I'm just gonna keep adding. Naomi Fry: God, did I miss that book. Oh, it's so good. Oh, it- That book is so good. Alex Schwartz: It's excellent. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Um, but it does remind me of All Is Lost. Have you guys seen All Is Lost? No. The J.C. Chandor movie that has only Robert Redford, only actor in it, as a man who's lost at sea. Naomi Fry: Does he, like, wear, like, a loincloth or something? Alex Schwartz: No, he is, he's on a boat, and his boat is hit by a shipping container that has fallen off a big ship and takes on a hole, and he has to try to survive. Naomi Fry: I'm just wondering if he's wearing skimpy togs. Alex Schwartz: I don't think so. Sorry. He's definitely well into his 70s at this point. Naomi Fry: Oh, I see. So Alex Schwartz: it was made in 2013. S- Naomi Fry: sorry. I mean, not that, not that an older man can't, you know- ... be completely still viable. Mm-hmm. I, I'm, I'm, I'm just... yeah, I, I, I mistook- It's, it's a good question ... the older Redford- Yeah. Yeah ... for the younger Redford. Okay. Well, it's, it's about one man's battle for survival against the elements on the open sea. Naomi Fry: Okay. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Well, you know, speaking of older hotties- ... let us turn- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: to Heart of the Beast, right? Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: So this movie has just come out in theaters. It's directed by David Ayer. It stars Brad Pitt and the dog actor Uber. Now, one thing that I think tickled all of us when we were prepping- Vinson Cunningham: Uh-huh ... Naomi Fry: allegedly Brad Pitt wanted the dog- wanted to be number, number two on the call sheet. Naomi Fry: He wanted to be number two on the call sheet because, you know, it is true, the dog is extremely prominent- Vinson Cunningham: It's, Naomi Fry: and it's, it's- ... in, in- ... there a lot ... in this movie. There's- I hear Alex Schwartz: that it's, that it's Uber and also Uber's three children- Yes occasionally subbing in. Naomi Fry: Yes. So there's Uber, but there... And he is mostly the- I didn't know that part. Mm-hmm. He's mostly the one who's, who's acting. Uh- Yes. Alex Schwartz: What is he, German Shepherd? Naomi Fry: He is a German Shepherd. Okay. Beautiful dog. Uh, but he is a bit older, and therefore, apparently he doesn't, can't run as fast as his children, his younger children, and so sometimes they were subbed in. They were pinch, pinch hitters- Vinson Cunningham: Yeah ... Naomi Fry: for Papa. Alex Schwartz: Sika, Riker, and Hondo. Vinson Cunningham: There was one- There was one very dramatic, very fast run. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: And I imagine that must have been- Naomi Fry: One of the children ... Si- Sika or somebody ... or all of them Vinson Cunningham: even. Maybe Naomi Fry: it was Alex Schwartz: Riker or Hondo. We can't Vinson Cunningham: know. Maybe they all took turns, yeah. Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Okay, so I'm gonna synopsize very- Please ... very quickly. It's not a very, uh, difficult movie to, to sum up Okay, so we have Brad. His name is James Belmont. He is a career soldier, and when he was on tour, he was joined by a very special dog named Odin. As the movie opens, uh, Brad is flying kind of a little... What do you call this type of plane, Vincent? Vinson Cunningham: The two propeller plane. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Like it just- Vinson Cunningham: It's the one from DuckTales. People know it. Yeah. It's got the little floaties on the bottom. Naomi Fry: He lands this plane on a kind of unoccupied terrain. Uh, it is in Alaska, we are led to understand. They meet a fellow traveler, like a fellow kind of like a mythical like old man in the sea vibes, who is kind of serves as a convenient interlocutor for James to explain very briefly. He is a man of few words, you know, because it, it would, it would kind of like stretch the imagination- Yeah ... for Brad to be like, say to the dog, uh- Vinson Cunningham: Remember when- " Naomi Fry: Remember how my name's James?" Yeah. You know, so, so Sorry. So, so it's kind of, you know, it's a device, right? And then once again, as God intended, Brad is alone with his dog. And as he's flying the plane, uh, James experiences a heart attack. Y- he crash lands, and, uh, it, like in, in a lake, somehow is able to survive. Somehow the dog survives. And he decides to like, in order to get back to civilization, he has to march 58 miles with the dog. Mm. So they begin walking, and the, the, the story is the tale of James and the dog encountering harrowing, almost impossible, uh, challenges along the course of their path, and, and what happens to them, and how they kind of save each other. Alex Schwartz: Okay. I'm not surprised by what I've heard. Sounded pretty much like what I expected. Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: It's pretty much what the synopsis delivers. Alex Schwartz: But the question is, good, meh, or quite bad? Naomi Fry: Okay, I am gonna say that this is quite bad. Alex Schwartz: Oh, no. Naomi Fry: Okay? It's like... Okay, I, I- Alex Schwartz: Not Heart of the Beast. Naomi Fry: This movie has the emotional and the intellectual depth of a movie for, like, eight-year-olds. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Okay? Yeah. Like, it's a movie for adults, right? This is not a Disney movie. It's a movie about a soldier who, uh, you know, has PTSD. The dog has PTSD. Uh, w- okay, Vincent, you're a little- Vinson Cunningham: It's a little bit of a propaganda film. Naomi Fry: For- Oh, that. There is- Yeah ... Vinson Cunningham: so, you know- Naomi Fry: For America. Vinson Cunningham: Not only, like, are there nightmares- Oh, dear uh, when, when Brad Pitt sleeps, all of a sudden there are, like, sepia toned flashbacks- That Naomi Fry: is insane though ... Vinson Cunningham: to, to combat. Naomi Fry: Yes. Interesting. Vinson Cunningham: And you see guns flashing, you see, like, him dragging the dog. You see some, you know, somebody floating down a river like a viking. You see all these weird things happening. Um- Naomi Fry: In sepia. Vinson Cunningham: It's like it's from the, the TV show Homeland all of a sudden. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: You know? And it's not a spoiler to say that at the end of the movie, suddenly there's a message on the screen telling you about the 3,000 dogs that have been enlisted in the US combat forces over the past 20 years, and some of them find a home elsewhere. So the- With Naomi Fry: loving, with loving families. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. It's, it's a little bit of a US military propaganda film. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: My big take is- Naomi Fry: Okay Vinson Cunningham: It's the Heart of the Beast. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: You know, whatever. But my note is- Naomi Fry: Yes ... Vinson Cunningham: it would've been better without the dog. Naomi Fry: That's a crazy note. Vinson Cunningham: Heart of the man. Because, 'cause, 'cause I do think it's sort of about... I do think there's a little bit of subtext that it is about middle age. What happens? What is the great fear of middle age? A heart attack. For no reason. We're gonna- he di- we don't know why. Oh, Naomi Fry: wow. That's so interesting. Vinson Cunningham: I didn't even- yeah He just has a heart attack. The rest of the movie he's chewing on- Aspirin aspirin as if it's hard candy, and he's like- Naomi Fry: Crunch, crunch ... Vinson Cunningham: uh, crunch, crunch. Can't find his aspirin, this and that. Um, but of course he's still, you know ... Sorry. Naomi Fry: Sorry. Vinson Cunningham: But he still has, like, this, these amazing survival sk- amazing survival s- he knows- Yeah ... he can make a fire out of anything, and the film does really luxuriate in the details of the, of his survival. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: You know, they show exactly how he makes, "Oh, this time I'm using this gel and I'm putting it in some cotton balls. This time I'm doing this and that." You know, how he, like, hangs the food from a tree so that critters can't get to it. They do anyway. You know, whatever, but it's like he's got a s- he's got skills. But something, age has, you know, it's like he's lost a little bit of a step, but he's still got enough skill to try to fight- Mm-hmm ... with age. And- um, here I think it is important to note that, um, the divorce proceedings between Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie became quite public a couple of years ago, and those proceedings have accused him or whatever of being a pretty unsavory character, whether we... I don't know anything about that sort of- Alex Schwartz: Allegedly. Yeah. Allegedly a- Disappointed ... disciplined alcoholic who, um, whose children hate him. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, and some, some- Those are the allegations ... allegations- It's actually from her ... of physical abuse as well. Mm-hmm. True. Um, all I'm saying is what is the great dream of the unhappily divorced? This is the most divorced movie ever. Naomi Fry: Well, okay. Alex Schwartz: What are you saying the great dream is? Vinson Cunningham: To go away to the Alaskan wilds. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And then he- Leave me alone. And then he- Leave me the Naomi Fry: fuck alone ... Vinson Cunningham: and then he does it, and he's all alone, and then everything goes wrong. So it is quite bad. I'm not disagreeing. Yes. No, no, no, no. I'm just also saying- I see ... I did think there was a subtext of, like, isolation and, um- No, absolutely ... Brad Pitt fighting with his own mortality. Alex Schwartz: So- Vinson Cunningham: And he, that could've happened without the titles. Naomi Fry: No, Alex Schwartz: no. So the crisis among men is so great- Naomi Fry: Yes ... Alex Schwartz: that one needs to go into the Alaskan wilderness and learn how to live deliberately. Naomi Fry: When we're back, we're leaving the wilds of Alaska behind for desert islands and the open sea. This is Critics at Large from The New Yorker :: MIDROLL:: So if nothing else, it's a story of survival in the wild. And Vincent, I think we can both agree that those parts were pretty satisfying. Like, I love seeing, like, Brad or anyone else build a fire. Vinson Cunningham: Yes. Naomi Fry: I fucking love seeing, like, the jerky being g- munched on as the, the, the, the, whatever, the roaring river, you know- Rages by kind of like rages by. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's, it's great, and it's all about the details. That type of thing, it's delightful. Is, is it for you guys? Like, do you, do you, have you historically liked the survival genre? Alex Schwartz: Love it. Stick them in extremis. Stick them in there and see what happens. So into it. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, I, I was mentioning before, and I think this is true There is a robust children's literature- which is probably- Mm-hmm ... where I, I'm definitely where I was first exposed to the tropes of the genre. Because it's fascinating to think about the comforts of the world being stripped away, and to imagine yourself into that kind of extreme situation, much as there is a robust children's literature about being orphaned or having only one parent or y- those kinds of fantasies are often explored in books for kids. So I'm thinking of a classic trio- Mm-hmm ... which for a kid born in the '80s was big. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Hatchet. Naomi Fry: Oh, yeah. Alex Schwartz: By Gary Paulsen. Does that mean anything to you guys? It Vinson Cunningham: was- Alex Schwartz: Yes ... Vinson Cunningham: it went triple platinum in my middle school. Alex Schwartz: That's right. My Side of the Mountain, which is an earlier book, I, I think from the '50s. Mm-hmm. My Side of the Mountain. Mm-hmm. By Jean Craighead George. Mm-hmm. And also an earlier book, Island of the Blue Dolphins- Naomi Fry: Yes ... Alex Schwartz: by Scott- Scott O'Dell ... Naomi Fry: O'Dell. Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Yes. And in all of these stories, there is a child who has to fend for him or herself. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: So all of that was totally formative and fascinating, and then enter something like Lord of the Flies- Mm-hmm where you have society and its cruelty is on top of the survival story, which I was really into. Then enter Cast Away, which I saw with Grandma Ida. Oh. To see Cast Away at a mall in New Jersey. Naomi Fry: That is the cutest thing I've ever heard in Alex Schwartz: my life. Intense, CLIP: Castaway Intense experience. I didn't want her to see me crying. Naomi Fry: Oh, Alex Schwartz: Grandma Ida. Wilson, as Wilson floated away or whatever happened to Wilson. Ugh. Naomi Fry: God. Alex Schwartz: Devastating. But I do love when a story like this is really satisfying. And for whatever reason, I'm just coming back to Rescue Dawn by Werner Herzog. Naomi Fry: So tell me about Rescue Dawn, because I haven't watched it, I must admit. Alex Schwartz: Well- Yeah ... Rescue Dawn is a movie starring Christian Bale. It's a fiction based on a documentary that Werner Herzog made called Little Dieter Needs to Fly, about a German American pilot in the Vietnam War who's shot down, goes to a prisoner of war camp, and then escapes and has to survive in the Vietnamese jungle. CLIP: Rescue Dawn it focuses on that, on the pure skill of survival and the intensity and the gritty details of how you get through this kind of thing, which if you can pace your movie right and can focus your camera on the cruel, unforgiving majesty of nature as only Werner Herzog can do. This is a subject he returns to again and again and again, how indifferent to humans nature is and how, how absolutely immoral. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: It's a very satisfying and exciting movie. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Also, there's a really fun New Yorker profile by Daniel Zalewski of Werner Herzog around the making of this movie, where you see, in true Herzogian style, his own film set descend to a kind of madness- Mm-hmm ... survivalist madness- Mm-hmm ... as we know has happened many times, like in Aguirre, the Wrath of God. Yeah. Um, yeah. If these stories are well told, I do find them riveting, I have to say. Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: This idea, this, this thing that we've discussed a couple times in passing that, like, it's especially a mainstay of, of literature for the young, I mean, al- always makes me think of, you know, there in, in, in, you know, civilization after civilization, there are these coming of age rituals that, you know, young men, you know, they're thrown out by the tribe or the group and say, "Survive for a little bit and then come back," and that's how you come of age. I do think that we just have an obsession with our ancestors, you know? Early humans, for whom this was just life. Alex Schwartz: Not even that long ago. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Not even crazily long ago. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And that this was just how you had to live if you wanted to be alive as a human being. Alex Schwartz: Right. Vinson Cunningham: Um, and that I think one of the growing difficulties of contemporary life is that you are born already atop so much achievement, and it's just like it all kind of passed you by, and this idea that, you know- Even in the worst parts, not to go back to The Heart of the Beast too much, you know. Naomi Fry: Listen, I welcome it. Vinson Cunningham: There is a sort of- Mm. You can't help but when you see someone, you know, pitch a j- uh, pitch a tent just so or make a decision and, uh, the, the... You can't help but sort of moralize it, that there is like a, it offerings you some kind of purer or more human way to be. whole thing about Hatchet is that when the kid gets back home, he's better. He's, you know, this time I think it's 50 something days when he's, uh, lost in the Canadian wilds, it has had a kinda curative effect on him, you know? Naomi Fry: I mean, it's about independence. It's about mastery. Yeah. You know? It's about becoming often a man, we should say. You know? It's like oftentimes, not only, but a lot of these examples of survival tales have to do with the kind of like either burgeoning masculinity or like, you know, in the case of Brad and the dog, a sunsetting kind of masculinity- Yeah or whatever, you know? But, but one last fight. I still got one last fight in me. Oh, got it. You know? And, and I, yeah, I mean, for me these stories, I mean, when I was in grad school I remember reading, um, Ian Watt's The Rise of the Novel, and the novel as a genre that became in the 18th century. And Robinson Crusoe, Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe, was according to Watt the first novel. Mm-hmm. And part of that was about realism, right? Mm-hmm. It was about this is not myth. I mean, it is in the sense that it, it's a mythical situa- you know. Situation, yeah. It, it could be put in mythical terms, but what Defoe did was talk about the details of survival. Like- Vinson Cunningham: Right ... Naomi Fry: how is this actually happening? What are the factual or quasi-factual events on the ground that are being described in minute detail in the pages of this book that create the reality of this individual that we're reading about? And, and as a lover of realism, I'm all about realism. I'm not about like fantasy. I'm not about like reading about outer space or about dragons or, you know, or about myth really. But it's kind of like a semi outlier to read these tales of survival, which do take place in an unfamiliar terrain. But for me it's because these are realist fictions. They detail the how and the what- Mm-hmm ... of what these characters are, are going through. Yeah. And to me that's absolutely fascinating. Alex Schwartz: I think that's a great point, Nomi. Um, yeah, I think this boundary between fantasy and the real is fascinating in the genre, especially as the world continues, as the human world continues to attempt its domination of the natural world- Mm-hmm, in every conceivable way. Vincent, you were saying that there's this kind of fantasy about the past that comes into- Mm-hmm play when we deal with these survivalist stories, and in many cases, I think really the recent past. Like, I'm thinking here of The Revenant, which takes place in the early 19th century, and is about, I think, a fur trapper who, and conflicts with the Native Americans, and conflicts with the other whites in his group, and all of this. Mm-hmm. It's so built into the mythos of the creation of the United States from the not at all distant past- Mm-hmm ... about encountering this Louisiana Purchase wilderness, and trying to discover what's there, and conquering the land, and taking it over. I'm even thinking of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books. Yes. Little House in the Big Woods, and- It's Naomi Fry: exactly that. Alex Schwartz: Little House on the Prairie. It's exactly that. Uh, so much of the American mythos, which is based in the reality of the American domination of the continent, is about that kind of- And the harshness of the Vinson Cunningham: land, Alex Schwartz: yeah ... yes, is about that kind of survivalism, yes, and absolutely the harshness of the land, trying to dominate both the land and its people. Um, and one thing that I think is really interesting about some of the newer entries to the genre, particularly the reality show entries, is this both trying to recreate those elemental conditions, but also strip away so many of those realities. Like, I'm thinking of something like the History Channel show Alone, which has 13 seasons and a very devoted following of viewers, and the distinctive thing about this show is that there is no camera crew or producing crew with the participants. Each participant is alone, as you might guess from the title, and they get cameras that they record their own activities with, that they give testimonials to directly, and then they're sent alone to see who can survive for the longest, which creates a kind of shipwreck type condition. But of course, if you were trying to create this more, um, fundamental early human experience, you'd be trying to work together or trying to figure out some kind of way to collaborate as a group or use skills. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Regardless, this craving among some to live this earlier experience is so strong, and then the craving among the rest of us to watch the person do it- ... so that we- Yeah ... don't have to do it. Naomi Fry: Yeah, I absolutely have no interest in living it, but I absolutely love watching it, and I love Alone. I love it. It's, for me- The difference between Alone and Survivor is that Survivor, of course, there are a lot of similar elements, but Survivor, I mean, I watched the f- the first couple seasons when it started, you know, a generation ago. A generation ago. Oh, absolutely. But I tapered off on it because it simply stressed me out because it's about strategy, right? Mm-hmm. And it's about alliances and double crossings, and it kind of takes away from the pleasure of just watching a person interact with nature. And so for me, Alone is, like, completely pleasurable, and Survivor is, is not really. Alex Schwartz: I find Alone fascinating, but I do not find it pleasurable. Okay. And I, I think I'm I know a lot of people really love this show. Yeah. And I have only recently dipped into it. And I have found a stark, harsh coldness that- ... that is mesmerizing in a way. Can you think of an ex- Yes ... of an example? So I, so I watched a good section of the most recent season of Alone, which aired this past summer. And it takes place in the Arctic wilderness, very far north, as winter is coming. So you have one guy, Will, who is from Alaska, who has not pooped in two weeks. CLIP: Alone - will Naomi Fry: That's often a problem- Alex Schwartz: It's a huge problem ... Naomi Fry: for, for contestants, and often why they have to be airlifted out of the- Yes ... or, like- Poop, pooping ship lifted. Alex Schwartz: And indeed, yeah. No pooping. No poop- And indeed, by the end of this episode, Will has tapped out 'cause he has four children at home, and he doesn't want to, like, have a perforated bowel- Mm ... and leave them without a father. Mm-hmm. He's, he becomes listless and kind of can't get up anymore. Then there's Jax. Jax is telling the story of surviving a horrific rape when she was younger- Oh, no ... and how going to nature and learning these survival skills- Mm-hmm ... has helped reconnect her to her body and make her aware of what her body can do. Very moving, very powerful. She has a delicious meal of roasted rabbit. Everything is great. She's feeling happy. And then preview the next episode, Jax is saying, "I can't take it anymore. The pain is too bad." Ah! So I really thought, "Can I take much more of this?" Naomi Fry: It's rough. No. Alex Schwartz: I don't know. Naomi Fry: No. It's rough. It's rough. But I think, I think it's about psychological resilience. Alex Schwartz: Yes. Naomi Fry: Because, like, a lot of- That's very true ... a lot of the people go into their own head. You know, they don't have a trusty dog to talk to. They only have themselves to talk to. They don't even have Wilson, and that is also really seemed like a kind of a close to the bone- Yeah ... psychic event happening, which is, yeah, I agree. It's harrowing. It's harrowing. Um, but it's also kind of an interesting thing to see. After the break: is the need to survive as remote as it might seem? :: MIDROLL:: Okay, guys. We have been talking about survival. How about some recent examples? Like, is the genre at a different place today, would you say? Like, are we someplace new with it, or are we simply just continuing on, uh, with where we were? Vinson Cunningham: I saw some of the first episode of the new season of S- Survivor. Naomi Fry: Which just started. CLIP: Survivor Vinson Cunningham: Which just started, and, you know, it, Survivor's been out for so long, I guess this is season 51 or something. Naomi Fry: 51. Vinson Cunningham: They start, you know, they, they just have to jump off a boat, and suddenly they're putting together rafts to bring themselves to shore, not unlike Brad Pitt, who in The Heart of the Beast at one point drags two heavy suitcases from the floor of a body of water and drags them to shore underwater. Anyway, and one of the contestants, and this is what I mean to say about Survivor, one of the contestants cries out in an attitude of total glee, CLIP: Survivor "A season of Survivor hasn't started like this since maybe, I don't know, like the single digits." As this, as if to s- you know, at this point, surviving is more a reference to the show than it is about nature and- Yes humankind itself. You know? All of them are like, "Oh, man, this is like old school Survivor." They've all g- clearly grown up on the show, and I just, uh, I thought that was so interesting. Alex, I know you also watched, uh, the new Survivor. Alex Schwartz: so I have never seen Survivor before. Can you believe it? Naomi Fry: Ever? Like Alex Schwartz: before- Ever. Vinson Cunningham: I can believe it. I've only really seen a couple of episodes, like, by accident at somebody else's house. I've never really been like, "I'm watching Survivor now." I Alex Schwartz: have- So I, you know- I have never watched Survivor before. Totally charmed by Survivor season 51- Oh ... 90-minute premiere. Naomi Fry: Okay. Alex Schwartz: Charmed. Naomi Fry: Okay. Charmed. Alex Schwartz: Charmed, Naomi Fry: I'm sure. So- Alex Schwartz: Charmed, I'm sure. Hmm. What I, I think I may stick with it. Very surprising. Look at these sun-kissed, mostly American children. So they're surviving. They're starting to survive. They're building- ... fires. One of them is going out and trying to spear a fish, and then suddenly they get to this obstacle course that looks like something from summer camp. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Hmm. Alex Schwartz: It reminded me of Nickelodeon shows from the '90s, like Legend of the Hidden Temple- Vinson Cunningham: Yes ... Alex Schwartz: where suddenly there's a time, everyone's screaming and trying to push- like a fuchsia padded box- Yes ... through a net- Yeah ... for some reason, and build a puzzle at the end. Nothing could be cheesier. Vinson Cunningham: It's like Stacked plus American Ninja Warrior or something. Naomi Fry: Or like The Gauntlet. Alex Schwartz: American Gladiators. You know? Vinson Cunningham: American Gladiators. Alex Schwartz: It's, it's, it's beyond corny, and then they have their ceremony at the end, and it's all about social dynamics, and totally into it, adorable and cute. Contrast that with Apocalypse. Naomi Fry: Right. Alex Schwartz: Let me tell you that nothing could be more sinister than Apocalypse. CLIP: Apocalypse Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Okay. What's, what's Apocalypse all about? Yeah, Naomi Fry: so tell us. Alex Schwartz: Apocalypse is about- Two groups, I think they're only aware of the people in their group, of British/Australian people who were dropped into an American hellscape in Indiana of some kind of town that's been totally abandoned. Hmm. And are left to fend for themselves. Naomi Fry: Yeah, and it's about, just to go back to Heart of the Beast, this is about war, right? Because where these two teams of survivors are plonked down in Apocalypse is in this kind of, like, base abandoned U- literal US military base in Indiana meant for urban warfare practice. CLIP: Apocalypse This is where I think we get into, like Vincent, you were talking about ideas of the past coming into survivalism. Now, of course, we have many ideas of the future- Mm-hmm ... when our world is overtaken by climate change and AI robots kill us all in the next five years. Naomi Fry: And all the billionaires are in bunkers. Alex Schwartz: And the billionaires are in their bunkers with their wine collections. Like, these people are not cute and fit. They're not sun-kissed. The landscape is not beautiful. Vinson Cunningham: Nice. Alex Schwartz: No, and they're delighted when they find, like, an abandoned school that they can shelter in. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: So it seems it seems a much harsher look at some of this stuff than fantasies of fishing and starting fires. Vinson Cunningham: What you said, Nomi, about the novel and especially, like, the novel of survival being a kind of, you know, being a kind of ex- exemplar of realism. Mm-hmm. I think part of what that does for us is it, it does have a kind of, like, didactic edge. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You know, part of the thrill of watching somebody do survival stuff, whether it's in a feature film like, uh, Heart of the Beast or somebody in real life, is that if you watch for long enough, you could actually learn something. It's like I'm gonna put that in my, you know- Naomi Fry: Pouch ... Vinson Cunningham: uh, my, my little prepper part of my- Yeah ... mind is like, "You know what? Okay, that's how you start a fire." You know, like you could- Totally ... there is some verisimilitude there that could, like, one day- Mm ... save you in a pinch or something like that. Sure. And I think that, too, that it's like, uh, it is in some way preparing you for a future that may or may not arrive, I think, is another reason why this, you know... I gotta, I wanna watch Apocalypse. I wanna see this one. Alex Schwartz: I mean, Vincent, I think you're, you're bringing up such an interesting thing, which is, of course, the empathy response when we watch something or read something and we consciously or otherwise imagine ourselves into the experience, and that can be part of the thrill of it, and you can be very comfortable to be watching these things happen from your own couch, but also it can be exciting and, and tickling to imagine them actually happening to you. And the un- the very uncertainty of the world means that there isn't such a strong barrier between this kind of fantasy and reality. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: It's, you know, reality is just a question of who's living what when. Um, sur- when I think of Survivor, I of course think of the canonical scene in Curb Your Enthusiasm where a Holocaust survivor and a sur- and a contestant on Survivor pair off at Larry, at Larry David dinner table. CLIP: Curb Your Enthusiasm - survivor Yes. Yeah. Do you guys know the scene- Yes, yes, yes ... I'm referring to? Yeah. Yeah. "I'm a survivor." "No, I'm a survivor." And they go back and forth, and it is so sick and so funny. Um, yeah, the like this, this word- Yeah ... survivors versus survivors of the Holocaust or people who are surviving any numbers of hideous catastrophes now. You know, it's, we're 25 years since 9/11, and I've been thinking about that a lot. I, um, always to bring things back to The New Yorker, this response written by the novelist Denis Johnson has been circulating. Something, 'cause The New Yorker after 9/11 asked a number of writers, thinkers to reflect- Mm-hmm ... on what had just happened. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: And he wrote, "I have now seen two days of war in the biggest city in America, but imagine a succession of such days stretching into years. Years in which explosions bring down all the great buildings until the last one goes or until bothering to bring the last one down is just a waste of ammunition. Imagine the people who have already seen years like these turn into decades. Imagine their brief lifetimes made up only of days like these we've just seen in New York." And so he's talking about the collision of someone else's reality becoming your reality- Mm-hmm ... all of a sudden. Mm-hmm. The reality that there is war, devastation, survival happening somewhere else, and suddenly it comes to you. It made me think about the ways that that's very much going on in our world now. And one example in art from recently that came to mind is in the Polish director Agnieszka Holland’s movie Green Border which is from 2023, and is about migrants, many of them from Syria but not exclusively, crossing from Belarus which is encouraging migrants and telling them come here come here, it was a scheme of Putin’s to ignite conflict with the EU, and Poland which has a right wing government at the time, is ejecting them and kicking them out, and people who had already been living a wartorn life are suddenly in a different kind of horror survival, they’re in an unforgiving easter european freezing forest. Of course I think of migrants crossing into the United States who’ve crossed the Darién Gap and so on. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: It is so fascinating that for our pleasure we watch invented scenarios that for other people is very real. Naomi Fry: Yeah. no absolutely that’s such a good point, and what you said Alex about how permeable the border is between our lives and situations of utter apocalypse and survival, and how the panic of that is rising um, and you know, I'm wondering, like as we're talking about these shows, and, and books, and, and movies and so on, um, that kind of, I don't know, show us what it's like to survive in a catastrophe. Like, are they teaching us the right lessons? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. On the one hand, I think it is, like, uh, salutary to be reminded- That all of us are in our ways, you know, surviving and it takes a lot of individual acquisition of skill. It takes a lot of sort of, strength and agility and things like that. But to your point, they don't really describe our condition. No matter what part of time that you live in, unless you are in fact marooned somewhere, there are other people, you know? Sure. And, um, I think it, it is harder to think about And harder to dramatize surviving together than it is surviving alone, you know? Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And so- Mm-hmm ... maybe like, you know, going back to the, the one or the one-to-one relationship between, you know, person and nature as a way of maybe sort of imagining how we might build back up to the problem that we all have, like right now, which is how do we live together, you know? Naomi Fry: Absolutely, and I think that's why maybe you're, you're kind of putting your finger on why Brad and the dog- didn't really do it for me. Yeah. Mm. Because this is not the problem, right? I mean, this is not... yeah, the issue is not like surviving with your dog. You know? Vinson Cunningham: Would that Naomi Fry: it were. It's surviving to- Would that it were. Mm-hmm. You know? Might be easier in, Alex, what do you think? Alex Schwartz: I think you guys are totally right, Clearly, survival and survivalism and gimmicky forms of it and some forms that try to approach a more naturalistic take on it are such a staple of our contemporary entertainment and, and we know that. But I really think, like when, when something happens in reality, when a survival story comes in the news, like the 2018 cave rescue of the Thai kids soccer team, it's riveting. It's totally riveting to all of us on the planet, and we can understand why. Mm-hmm. This is the elemental human homo sapien struggle. There they are. They were just a bunch of boys going to play soccer, 12 boys, and suddenly they're in this cave, and people from all over the world, the Thai Navy SEALs, military teams, the British divers, are all teaming up, showing the ability of humans on Earth to join forces to try to get them out of there. Like the indomitability of the human spirit is there. It's beautiful. We are often drawn to the darker cannibalistic sides of these stories, Yellow Jackets, et cetera, but then you get the rescue of the soccer team Naomi Fry: Okay, you guys, one, one last question. Assuming that the three of us are caught in a survival situation, we're stranded somewhere in the wilderness, which wilderness would we pick? Vinson Cunningham: Don't you guys wanna be in a forest that's close to a lake? Alex Schwartz: more about that, Vinson Cunningham: Vincent. I want there to be a shore, but I don't want it to be saltwater, and I don't want it to be water all around. Naomi Fry: So we need, you know, drinking water, bathing water. I will say that I definitely wouldn't want a jungle. I don't think I'd be- Can't, Alex Schwartz: can't handle a jungle. Naomi Fry: Can't handle a jungle. I don't do well- Too many noises ... with heat. And I don't do well- I don't do Alex Schwartz: well with extreme cold either, so we're just even. Oh, yeah, Naomi Fry: well, I mean, sure. Vinson Cunningham: We're just even. Alex Schwartz: I'll take a summer tundra. Naomi Fry: Wait, summer tundra, say more. Alex Schwartz: I can't do it in the winter, but I could try in the summer. Naomi Fry: What, what exactly is Alex Schwartz: summer tundra? It's a tundra in the summer. What more is there to say? There are lakes. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, yeah. I could also... I'm, I was thinking more like, you know, uh, the outskirts of Cold Spring, New York or, you know, somewhere, somewhere. Where Alex Schwartz: you can just go into town, have a coffee- Vinson Cunningham: The Hudson Valley and then go back to your surviving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ex- I, I really need some aspirin. I'm, my heart, my heart attack is acting up again. Naomi Fry: Crunch, crunch. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, sh- bring, bring back some macchiatos for the team, and let's keep going. Vinson Cunningham: That's right. Naomi Fry: Guys, I think we're gonna just stay around this round desk in this little room- Uh, yeah, I think it's- at One World Trade. Alex Schwartz: Definitely. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: This has been Critics at Large. Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Huchman, and we had engineering help today from James Yost, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. And as always, you can find all of our episodes at newyorker.com/critics