CAL 135_clubkid TRANSCRIPT Vinson Cunningham: This is Critics at Large, a podcast from The New Yorker. I'm Vinson Cunningham. Naomi Fry: I'm Alex Schwartz. And I'm Naomi Fry. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. How's everyone doing? Alex Schwartz: Just happy to be here. Naomi Fry: Happy to be alive. Vinson Cunningham: Great couple of weather weeks in New York, I gotta say. Honestly, Naomi Fry: yes. Vinson Cunningham: It's, like, some of the best weather I can remember. Naomi Fry: A little windy. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: If you have to just choose a problem, that, that would be it. Naomi Fry: But the skies are blue, the air is crisp, and today on the show, listeners, we're always asking you to write us with questions, things you want us to discuss on the show, and one ask that we've been getting over and over again is from listeners looking for examples of fatherhood in works of art and, and generally in culture. We decided to devote a full episode to this question today because really there are so many examples. You know, we have Tony Soprano, we have Tony Danza- ... on Who's the Boss, to, uh, you know, playing Tony Micelli on Who's the Boss. Did, did you have, like, a beloved, like, TV dad as a kid? Do you have any other, like, dadly favorites in culture? Vinson Cunningham: I mean, yes is the answer. Just by dint of belonging to my family, I had to have a certain regard for a guy we don't talk that much about anymore. His name was Heathcliff Huxtable, and he- Oh, yeah ... was played by Bill Cosby. Oh, Dr. Naomi Fry: Huxtable. Vinson Cunningham: And, uh, yeah. Arguably one of, like, the strongest influences of masculinity in my whole life Naomi Fry: You know, in retrospect, quite dark, but Vincent, for people of our general generation, I think you're right. I mean, that- It's a big deal ... figure, like, loomed, loomed large. There’s a whole spectrum right, Like, literature dads. Like, we have, um, you know, Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird, the kind of moral compass dad, right? Like, the, the figure to look up to. We have, like, rogue dads. Um, you know, how about Leon, the Professional, the Luc Besson- Hmm movie from 1994 where, you know, the father figure teaches his daughter figure to kill. You know- ... there are just, like, a lot of different examples. It's, it's, it's a whole, uh, cornucopia of, of dads in culture, and we're gonna talk about a lot of those figures today. And we're looking at the new film Club Kid, created by a comedian, Jordan Firstman, who both stars in it and wrote and directed it. A very modern, very contemporary depiction of fatherhood. CLIP: Club Kid It's about a gay club promoter who learns that, thanks to a late night hookup a decade ago, he's suddenly become a dad to a 10-year-old son. I think It's interesting in part because it gets at some of the ways that our ideas about fatherhood are in flux right now. They're not totally stable. Not just in movies but in culture more broadly, what are you guys seeing when it comes to that flux moment more broadly? Alex Schwartz: I just think there's a much bigger investment in fatherhood from dads that we're seeing quite concretely- Mm-hmm especially in the millennial generation- Oh, yeah ... which is the active- Mm-hmm ... parenting generation at the moment to younger kids. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Dads today spend, I think according to studies, about four times as much time with their kids as they did in the mid-'60s. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Um, obviously we're moving away from the stern, silent, just a provider kind of father type. Mm-hmm. But what does that look like? Does it look like a more maternal kind of fatherhood? Does it look like something totally new? I think these are the questions I keep seeing coming up in media. Naomi Fry: And also just in life as it's lived, and we'll talk about that. So today we're gonna be looking at fatherhood, how it shows up in our entertainment, how our ideas about fatherhood are undergoing what are pretty seismic shifts, I think, in our culture more broadly. And really what I think we wanna get at is what does it mean to be a dad right now? So that's today on Critics at Large, Club Kid and the New Fatherhood. ________________ Okay, you guys, let's, let's begin. Life with Father. Um, when we think about some of the classic examples of fatherhood, what springs to mind? What are some famous patriarchs? Alex Schwartz: I will just put Homer Simpson out there. Naomi Fry: Oh, yeah. Vinson Cunningham: He's a dad. Alex Schwartz: He's the American dad. Naomi Fry: Yeah. In Vinson Cunningham: many ways. Alex Schwartz: He's the parody of the American dad, obviously. Naomi Fry: Yeah. And he's like the parody of the American TV dad in some ways. Yes. Or, or kind of like- Right ... the inverse of it. It kind of, like, shows the lie of the American TV dad in some ways. Alex Schwartz: Well, say more, Nomi, because you're, you're the, you're The Simpsons expert. Naomi Fry: There's one line from, like, an episode in which, um, it's a flashback episode where Marge is expecting. They already have Bart, who's a toddler, and Marge is expecting. Uh, she's, she's, she's pregnant with Lisa, and Homer says something like... CLIP - The Simpsons It's not easy to juggle a pregnant wife and a troubled child, but somehow I manage to fit in eight hours of TV a day. Naomi Fry: So he's basically just the kind of like lazy oafish, leave me alone, not mean-spirited, but just extremely narcissistic, focused on himself. The wife is carrying the load absolutely. I mean, he works outside the home, but his job is a joke. He's a joke at it. All he wants to do is just drink beer and watch TV. And you know, which was part of course of kind of like a, a general wave of kind of like anti-hero dads that came into the, the TV screen. You know, post kind of like the '50s, like, you know, Leave It to Beaver, like, uh- idealized patriarch. Um, and then the '80s kind of like sweet, sweet, maybe somewhat hapless, but kind of like very solid dad. And I don't know, in like, uh, Growing Pains, Alan Thicke on Growing Pains or like, uh, you know, Tony Danza was a little bit different because he was a single dad, but kind of like very loving and can-do. And then there was like Al Bundy on Married With Children, who was more Homer-like, more mean-spirited than Homer CLIP: Married with Children Like, kind of total losers- Mm-hmm ... uh, who are absolutely diminished in terms of morals and in terms of like gumption versus their, their wives, right? Their more like robust wives. So yeah, I think that's Homer. But I will say that Homer is... He, he li- he does love his kids, you know? Vinson Cunningham: It's kinda like there's a model like kinda post Bundy, but it's like, um, Everybody Loves Raymond- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm or Vinson Cunningham: King of Queens. Like, lovable- Naomi Fry: Henpecked ... yeah ... somewhat henpecked. Vinson Cunningham: But henpecked and always wrong. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: And like stupid. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You Naomi Fry: know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Don't, don't even ask to have sex Naomi Fry: Yes ... Vinson Cunningham: but also like, you know, it's like always like, "How dumb you are," and that's like the, the last joke. It's kind of like there was- You're so stupid there wa- yeah, there was a moment there in sitcom history where it's like it was, you know, Homer and his discontents. It was like a, a- Yeah ... a group there. Yeah. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. We're k- we're kind of zeroing in on this '80s to '90s moment- Mm-hmm ... when the second wave feminist movement has already peaked and receded a bit, and rage is still latent in the culture probably- um, about gender inequality. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: But the, so we're showing the two-parent household as a stable, unstable unit maybe. Yeah. Um, and it can be played for comedy or it can be- Mm ... played for fury. I mean, I wanna go even farther back in time just for a second, because randomly your discussion of Homer Simpson made me think of a 19th century American father. Naomi Fry: Please. Alex Schwartz: Bronson Alcott. Naomi Fry: Oh, Bronson. Alex Schwartz: Father of Louisa May Alcott. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Oh. Who is a kind of complement to the Homer Simpsons in a totally different way. Naomi Fry: Interesting. Alex Schwartz: Bronson Alcott, and, and I include him here because I'm thinking of Little Women and the four girls raised by Marmee- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: Mother Marmee. Bronson Alcott, while his wife is keeping the household together and such, is creating Fruitlands, transcendental agrarian commune- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: in Massachusetts- Mm-hmm ... where everyone is eating only plants, only crops that grow downwards, like potatoes. Naomi Fry: Mm. Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. We're not talking even just veganism here. There's no animal labor. They're wearing plain linen clothes. Like w- part of the great American utopian project, wh- which we've talked about on other episodes. I just love thinking about this genius, Louisa May Alcott, growing up in the shadow of all of this, and also needing to just care about the practical things of the world while, like, Father is running Fruitlands. Mm-hmm. There's something about it that is a bit Homer Simpson adjacent to me, even if it's not working a drudgery job at a, at a, um, a nuclear plant. Yeah. Just like Father has his ambitions, and everyone else meanwhile has to be on the ground trying to make life work. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. And so when you talk about the '80s as you guys are doing, we've n- we've, we've skipped over a bit, but in between, there is the post-World War II 1950s Don Draper father. Mm-hmm. I'm going to provide the enforcement, the reinforcement of this Victorian concept of separate spheres. The woman is gonna take care of the household. The father is going to take care of the money and all- Mm ... kinds of practical concerns. Mm-hmm. And this will be a wonderful situation where everything is accounted for. Of course, it was not, because social revolution happened quite quickly- ... on the heels of all of this. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: But I think that by the time you get to the '80s, into what you're discussing, there's a kind of- Mm, like- Naomi Fry: Well, there's an uncertainty ... discomfort, yes. There's an uncertainty- Yeah ... I think because now that women are out of the house, you know, second wave feminism has happened, the '70s are over, does that mean that men now are... If women are like men in the workplace, does that mean that men are now supposed to be like women in the home, right? Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: And, and, and so i- it's, it's a confusing time whi- which kind of brings up all of these, like, Mr. Mom depictions, you know? Exactly. Which are played for laughs, right, a lot of the time. But which I think stand in for a lot of anxieties about what the father is supposed to be in, in the late 20th century. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, for Naomi Fry: sure. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I mean, Mr. Mom being, coming from 1983 starring Michael Keaton as a man whose wife is becoming the, the bigger breadwinner in the family, who's going off to work, who's taking the traditional masculine role. And yes, you're right, Nomi, it's totally played for laughs like, "How do you change a diaper? How do you do these kinds of- Naomi Fry: Three Men and a Baby ... Alex Schwartz: Three Men and a Baby. You Naomi Fry: know? Alex Schwartz: 1987, Naomi Fry: yes. Like, "Oh, my God," like, "She peed in my face. Ooh, I've never... How do you... I'm gonna, like, staple together the, the, the, the, the diaper," you know, et cetera. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I often find these kinds of things very tender. There's something tender about the arc of incompetence to competence. Naomi Fry: Absolutely. Yeah. If we're talking about, like, favorites of, of our own, right? I'm gonna go back to Tony Danza as Tony Micelli in Who's the Boss?- ... you know, the 1980 sitcom whi- which I watched when I was very young. There is something... So, so this is a story of a single, single dad from Queens with his one daughter, Samantha. He decides to, to go take on the job of a housekeeper at, in leafy Connecticut. CLIP: Who’s the Boss Naomi Fry: So everything is topsy-turvy, right? We have, like, the, the, the kind of, like, rich, WASPy career woman, and there's all of this confu- There's all of the sexual tension. There's all of this, like, what does this mean for, for, for, like, masculinity? What does it mean for fatherhood? But I do remember it was played as a kind of, like, this is the figure of an ideal dad because he is there for his daughter. He could, like, do it all. Vinson Cunningham: What you just said put me in mind of, uh, always on the table is the option, is, like, a, a great big option, which is, I call the, the Mufasa/ King Hamlet. Okay. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Which is the dad can be dead. Naomi Fry: The dad is dead. Vinson Cunningham: Right? Like- Yes ... the, the absence of the father is- Mm ... also just a huge trope- Naomi Fry: Yes. That's such a good Vinson Cunningham: point ... of depictions of fatherhood, because then the father, the, the father becomes baggage therefore for the son, and everybody around the son usually, to sort of, um, deal with. Um, I, I, as I was thinking about this, I, I thought about the novel which I really liked when I first found it, the 1975 novel by Donald Barthelme, which is simply called The Dead Father. And in that book, it's kind of a, um, a mismatch, a, a mishmash of conceptual approaches, but generally, the dead father in that book is a big, um, part physical but part just conceptual being that the characters in the book are literally dragging behind them on a journey. It just becomes weight for everybody else to relate to, and the, and the friction of that weight is the sort of, I don't know, iron that sharpens the rest of the characters. And it, it, it, because of First of all, the sort of traditional arrangement of the father just kind of being off somewhere. But then also, like, the, um, the discomfort with the presence of the father in the home causing all kinds of, uh, I don't know, gender trouble. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: It always seems easy in a lot of narratives just to, to have him gone. Naomi Fry: To get rid of him. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And to, and to sort of, um, build one's own identity in the, in the shadow of that loss. Naomi Fry: What about you, Alex? Alex Schwartz: Mr. Bennet from Pride and Prejudice. Naomi Fry: Oh, yes. For Alex Schwartz: sure. Naomi Fry: This sort of absent, like, Lizzie Bennet is his favorite. He's Lizzie's favorite. The Bennet mother is, like, an absolute idiot who would, you know, sacrifice her daughters, et cetera, et cetera, for, for money, position. But she is right. She knows the score, and the dad, for all his wisdom, um, and niceness in some ways, is ineffectual, right? Alex Schwartz: Well, I see it cutting both ways- Naomi Fry: Okay, say more ... Alex Schwartz: actually. Um, yes, Mrs. Bennet is a silly woman who nonetheless is aware of the real economic- Yes, she knows ... precarity that the family is in and sees it as her duty to set her daughters up in life, which it is. And Mr. Bennet also understands this to be part of his duty, but he's not going to lift a finger to accomplish this. So yeah, in that, you can draw a direct line from Mr. Bennet to the '80s sitcoms we're talking about. But he also has that kind of loving connection- Naomi Fry: Oh, yeah ... Alex Schwartz: to his daughters, and concern for them, and his- A great moment in the novel, or one of them at least, is when Lizzie Bennet refuses the cousin, Mr. Collins. Mrs. Bennet is extremely distressed, and Lizzie goes to her father, who keeps a poker face through the exchange, and then says the wonderful line, "Your mother will ne- you have a p- basically, you have a problem here. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do." And so suddenly we have girl dad standing up for- He's a bit of Naomi Fry: a girl Alex Schwartz: dad ... the agency of- Mm ... his daughter, and recognizing that her happiness is also significant. Naomi Fry: When we're back, we're talking about comedian Jordan Firstman's debut film, Club Kid. This is Critics at Large from The New Yorker. :: MIDROLL:: I think all of this is really interesting and is, is giving us, uh, a kind of like, um, space from which we can, uh, move to our next topic of discussion, which is, as promised, a kind of very contemporary take on fatherhood. So this is the newly released movie Club Kid, um, from the comedian Jordan Firstman, who wrote, directed, and also stars in this movie, and it's in limited release right now, going into wider release over the next few weeks. Who wants to give us a, a brief synopsis of what this movie is about? Vinson Cunningham: Club Kid, as you mentioned, the debut film by Jordan Firstman. It's written, directed, and it stars him. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: So this is really the sort of outgrowth of one mind. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: It's about a 30-something denizen of the night. You know, he's in the nightlife. He's Naomi Fry: a creature of the night. Vinson Cunningham: He is, uh, a party promoter. Uh, his name is Peter. Naomi Fry: Yes. Yep. Vinson Cunningham: And, um, yeah, he hangs out with a, a crowd of people not unlike himself, like, uh, it's broadly queer, very into drugs, and usually more awake and alive at night than they are, uh, in the daylight working hours. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Um, we come to find out very early on that 10 years before the main action of the movie, he had a sexual encounter, um, that resulted, unbeknownst to him, uh, in the conception of a child. So we see him 10 years later, and we can tell that he's kind of, like, at the end of his rope with his current lifestyle. He's showing up to work meetings high. He's, he, he looks like he's finally tired of this life, and then he comes into the knowledge of this child. The, the child is brought to him after the, after the death of the mother, and the rest of the movie is about him trying to reckon through this new s- situation, through the new status as the father, reckon with how he lives his life and what it would take for him to grow up. Naomi Fry: Yes. Great synopsis. Great synopsis. Uh, what do we broadly think before we go deeper into the text? Like, did you like it? Did you not like it? Alex Schwartz: I did like the movie. Yeah. I did not love the movie- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... I will say. Yeah. And I was wanting to love the movie. Yes. And I, and my, um, enthusiastic audience at 2:00 PM on Friday at the Angelika on West Houston Street were really into it. It was fun- Yeah ... to see with them. Like Naomi Fry: laughing and crying? Alex Schwartz: Yeah, and I think, and there were also, like, there were definitely club people there. I'm not a club person, guys. I'm a, I'm an exhausted- Naomi Fry: Ugh, Alex Schwartz: so exhausted ... you know, just almost 40-year-old. This is what, this is where I'm at. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: But although I do dream of a return. I dream of a nightlife return, but that's a subject for another time. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Um, so I, I actually loved the nightlife part of the movie. Yeah. And the texture of the club and the, and the ecstasy With both senses- Vinson Cunningham: Mm. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm ... amply represented, of what it means to just let go and rejoice and be in sync with a great mass of moving bodies on a dance floor. All of that, I was really into. The child stuff made me anxious and nervous. Naomi Fry: You mean the child in contact with this club culture, or- Alex Schwartz: No, the fact that a child is suddenly dropped off, I mean, there's a very funny scene early in the movie. As Vincent has wonderfully recounted, Peter, the main character of the movie, had sex with a woman at his club years ago. He doesn't even remember that he did that. Right. It's, we get it in the movie, it's blurred. Drugs are definitely a huge factor here. Um, this is the kind of gay guy who, like, he prides himself on talking about it, like, loudly at the club that he's, like, never encountered a vagina. Like, he's a purist. Mm. Yeah, yeah. And oops, just takes once, and suddenly 10 years later, this wonderful, extremely funny character who is called Edison in the movie, who has had her brain absolutely fried- Yes ... by going out every single night of her life, arrives. She's English. Both of these w- she was with her friend at the club years before, they're both English, and suddenly, boop, "Here's your kid. Yep, mom's gone now. Sorry, you have to be the sole parent, but here's his birth certificate." Vinson Cunningham: Which makes it okay. Alex Schwartz: W- yeah, so we're watching, like, this is my type A-ness. We're watching all these people- Naomi Fry: Well, of course. I'm like, "What about school?" Alex Schwartz: Oh, my- Naomi Fry: What, uh, what's gonna Alex Schwartz: happen? So, so this is, so, so- Naomi Fry: Health insurance? Alex Schwartz: Exactly. What- So not being able, and- Yeah ... and, and to Fursman's credit, he definitely puts, he, he, he n- he glances those directions. Yes. Yeah. But it's the last thing his character would ever think about. Like, I was like, "Oh, y- you've actually here trafficked a child. You've unwittingly trafficked a child." Yeah. Right. And so I'm spending the movie being like, "He's trafficked a child. He's trafficked a child. He's trafficked a child." Yeah, like the other shoe Naomi Fry: is gonna drop. Alex Schwartz: I'm, I'm- The other shoe is gonna drop ... I'm nervous and anxious- Yeah ... and it's like, oh, no, no, no, you're s- you know, chill out, chill out, my friend. You're supposed to just be- It's a movie. Yeah, you're supposed to just be enjoying the bond created between- Right ... father and child. So the, so the unwitting trafficking of a child by a drug dealer was stressful to me, because I didn't think that could end well, and it, and it doesn't, but sort of does. The movie itself is very sweet, and, um, you know, it's, it's a classic example, and there are a number of examples, this is its own subgenre, of movies where the growing up is done by the parent through the- Yes means of a child. Mm-hmm. And that's the other thing that I felt a little bit cool on- Yes ... in this movie. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: The child in the movie, he's called Arlo. He's played by a very adorable child actor, Reggie Absalom, and he's one of these kids, in the world of the movie, he has to be essentially without major problems to let- Naomi Fry: Yes Alex Schwartz: The dad character come into his own. You know, I'm looking at a kid whose mother has recently died, who we know has had a violent stepfather figure at home, because that's part of the background that's given to Peter when this kid is dropped with him, and he's keeping it together pretty well. Not always, but basically keeping it together pretty well. He's a agreeable, going-with-the-flow kind of kid, so that the adult can grow, and that balance made me a little bit uncomfortable. Oh, absolutely. So I enjoyed the movie, but those things I couldn't totally let go of, that the child is used to let Dad grow up. Naomi Fry: Yeah, I feel very similarly to you, Alex. I mean, I thought... I enjoyed the movie. I thought it was very cute. There were really some heartwarming moments. I really thought that, um, like, Jordan Firstman is very, um, is very charming Firstman kind of came to prominence over the pandemic doing these, like, r- funny, very clever Instagram, uh, kind of impressions. And since then, we've seen him in the kind of like, uh, you know, um, side role in, in Rachel Sennott's I Love LA, and you know, it, it, it kind of like he had some guest roles in other places. So I was like, I wonder how he's gonna carry off, you know, being, like, in every single scene of, of this movie. I mean, apart from, like, directing and writing it, but just even his presence on screen. And I have to say, I find him very charming, and I was like, "Oh, I, I find this to be a believable and charming character." But I think you're right. Like, I, I know that this movie is supposed to be, in some ways, a fairy tale. It's a feel-good narrative, you know? And, and for it to be a feel-good narrative, it has to evade many, many of the elements of what it means to actually engage with a child and raise a child. Certainly a child that has gone through, it seems, enormous trauma. There is one scene in which the kid suddenly, like, lashes out- Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... Naomi Fry: in a playground, or like in a s- whatever, yeah, in a playground. And, um, but that is, like, maybe the single time that the kid is not shown as anything but totally- Vinson Cunningham: An awesome hang? Naomi Fry: An awesome hang. Yeah. Yeah. W- what about, what about you, Vinson? What were you thinking? Vinson Cunningham: I think we all, we broadly agree. Yeah. Like, I think- The first, I don't know, 40% of the movie is really to me a gr- is a, an awesome description of a way of life. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Um, I love the music, I love the sort of colors of the club there. Mm. They like sense memories of just like total chaos and- Yeah ... confusion. It is kind of a parable about like sort of New York and the nighttime, and how those two things converge. in the cheesier part of the movie with the, the kid, the, the most moving part of it is when they're, um, driving over what I believe to be the Manhattan Bridge. Mm. And they look out at the skyline at night. And, and, uh, Peter says, um, to Arlo, you know, "It, it's like this every time." Kinda just like the, the real love that you can have, not just of a place, but of a place at a certain time. Of, you know, a vantage that can only be achieved by a certain way of life. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Totally great. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And just like that Brad Pitt movie, Heart of the Beast would have been better without the dog- Naomi Fry: Oh my God, Vinson Cunningham: it would have been- ... this movie would have been better without the kid. It's like, the- Oh. Because in some ways, in some ways- I love Naomi Fry: this take. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. In- I love this take ... in, in some ways, like it's a movie, this, uh, I understand why the child has to be- Of course it is like a symbol in it because it- Naomi Fry: Just like the dog in Heart of the Beast. Vinson Cunningham: That's right. 'Cause one of the great themes of the movie, it seems to me, is precisely innocence. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Mm. But again, not the innocence of the child, but of First Man, who is, you know, even when, you know, no, I don't wanna spoil too much, but he has a great big speech about why he wants the child towards the end of the movie, and it's all about him. It's very all about him. It's all about him. And I don't know- It's a Alex Schwartz: highly disturbing moment that may be intended to be sincere. Vinson Cunningham: I don't, that's the thing, I don't know if the movie knows how crazy that speech is. It's like, "I've- It's a very you completely ... I've finally learned," yeah. Like that Naomi Fry: it's about me. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah. "I finally learned how to like myself because the child saw something," and it's like, uh, I, every parent knows exactly what you mean when, uh, somebody looks at you with more esteem than you have for yourself. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: I get it, but it's just not sufficient- Naomi Fry: It's not sufficient ... Vinson Cunningham: as a basis to be a caretaker. Yeah. It's just not. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And, um, there are times when I was like, "Ugh, come, you know, give me..." No, the child should not go to a club and DJ. It's not cute, you know? Yeah. But maybe it's just because I f- I've just like I'm just too much of a parent or something, I don't know. Alex Schwartz: Um- I think it's all of us. I think, I think, yeah, probably the audience is divided between parents and non-parents. And the parents are saying, "No." Yeah. I'll say, I'll say this about the depiction of fatherhood, though, in the movie- Yeah ... and parenthood in general. Vincent, I love that scene that you, that you picked out where the magic, the dad is experiencing the magic of the city skyline through his child's eyes. I do think one really lovely thing about the movie is that it does embody that side of parenthood, and maybe fatherhood or the new fatherhood, we can discuss- Mm-hmm if it's new or not, which is reanimating your own experience by sharing it with a new person. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Aside from the exhaustion and the money concerns and the anxieties- Yeah ... and the frustrations and all of those logistical things, the fairy tale element of the movie, which maybe is actually, like, quite pleasant to watch as a parent, is taking some of that away for a moment, yes, the second shoe drops, but taking some of that away for a moment to allow that kind of rediscovery to take place. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: And I do think there's something in there, like- This kind of trope of the adult growing up through the child is not a new one in movies. No. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm thinking of, like, Paper Moon, the Peter Bogdanovich movie, or, um, like even even Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. Sure. Where Adam Sandler I mean, was there ever a more '90s movie made than Big Daddy? And here we get the gay version of it. One thing I liked about the movie was, was how gay and queer it remained. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're gonna- the kid is gonna get incorporated into this world. It doesn't mean that you're gonna become, like, the straight dad version of- Naomi Fry: No, but I, but I- of what Alex Schwartz: you've been living ... Naomi Fry: but I will say that he gets, you know, he gets a steady, seemingly monogamous boyfriend. There, there is kind of, like, a move, what some might consider, I mean, as a, as a person who has, like, a partner and a child, and is certainly not living a, a life, a wild life, for me, this seems normal. But I can see how some people would be like, "Okay, this, this movie takes a k- kind of a conservative turn- Mm-hmm ... of, like, leaving the sort of, like, anonymous hookups in the, in the dark room, in, in the club on ketamine behind, and is suddenly, like, you know, s- straightening up- Yeah ... if not becoming straight. Vinson Cunningham: You know, the s- some of the smarter takes on what is called family abolition, which is, um, essentially just, like, sort of de-centering the family as the unit of Care, stability, et cetera, et cetera. You kind of, you can kind of see, um, that ethos coming through in s- some of the middle parts of this film where, like, the, the times when the child is happiest when, is when he's, like, um, surrounded by, you know, a coterie of trans women who he knows to call the dolls, and this- The Naomi Fry: Trinidad family Vinson Cunningham: yeah, and someone's, um, showing him how to DJ in one corner. But s- you can still see it as like a, a, a vast network of care and not, you know, a kid just lost in some sort of like adult chaos. Um, in some ways, uh, the picture of fatherhood is one where it's, the father is not necessarily, um, the sort of patriarchal foil to the implied or real shape of the mother and instead is a, is a kind of a hub at the center of, of a much wider, more complicated network that is nonetheless like totally available to show up for the child. There's a, there's a scene where, um, Peter and his friend, this Black character, which I kind of wish had, had been developed a little bit more. He just kind of shows up and is really nice or whatever. Um, he and this friend are, are kind of watching over Peter at the playground and the friend says to him, "You know, I've been trying fisting recently." Like, there's like- ... serious like sort of gay subculture talk is, is happening, but in the context of like watching a kid at the playground. Mm-hmm. And it implies different ways of being, I think, just the, this juxtaposition of classic normative, you could even call them conservative structures, but given a different tilt by who inhabits them, you know? So, um, I think that's an interesting way, um, for the father to be and therefore it does, it very much matters that the milieu of this film is- Naomi Fry: Is Vinson Cunningham: queer ... is queer and not straight. Naomi Fry: After the break, how fathers went from patriarchs to peers. Critics at Large from the New Yorker will be right back :: MIDROLL:: So I, I wanna go a little bit bigger picture now and talk about some of the new archetypes of fatherhood we're seeing take shape. And one idea that we definitely can see in Club Kid is this shift from fathers as patriarchs to peers, right? Mm-hmm. Which introduces its own questions, right? What does it mean when you're- like, when you say, "My dad is my best friend"? I mean- Yeah ... quote, unquote. Like, how does that affect care? Alex Schwartz: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I don't think this is just an is- I think this is modern parenthood in general. Yes. And it's not just an issue that dads are facing. I'm thinking of the, um, Amy Poehler character in Mean Girls. Oh. "I'm not a regular mom, I'm a cool mom." Naomi Fry: Yeah. Yeah. "Oh, you girls keep me young." Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I, has there ever been a more sinister figure depicted on screen? That is just the worst. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's, I think, absolutely right. We're going from the forbidding father, the Old Testament father telling you what you can and cannot do, and also being called in, like if we're talking about these archetypes of, Vince, and you were- Mm-hmm ... thoroughly covered the absent father and his, and being invoked as a - Yeah ... as a kind of, as a figure and a, and a figure of judgment and a wh- who you need to, again, in this God-like way, be imagining what his judgment would be upon you. Like, you can think of the wait 'til your father gets home kind of father. Oh, yeah. "Just wait 'til your father gets home," and the law is laid down. I'm telling Naomi Fry: Dad. Alex Schwartz: I know. But things have been dark. Things have been dark. So yeah, that's circulating around. The, the, the quote-unquote old ways are not so old, and they're still certainly with us. but there are increasingly these models of ways it can be. I mean, I keep, I keep thinking back to my probably... Like, we've seen a lot of dads on screen lately, and last year there was a lun- a lot of buzz around dads being in the movies and in media all the time. Mm-hmm. Like the one Battle After Another dad, um- The Naomi Fry: Leo dad. Alex Schwartz: The Leo dad. Yeah. Naomi Fry: Hamnet, the tragic Shakespeare dad. Alex Schwartz: Hamnet. Right, exactly, the tragic Shakespeare dad. Um, my favorite dad, of course, was the Stellan Skarsgård dad, dad from Sentimental Value, the, the Joachim Trier movie where he was an actor and was- Absent ... a successful actor and therefore was absent for his daughters, and now the, in adulthood has to deal with what that means- Right and what their relationship is. And, and again, because we're in the democratizing era of social media, it's not all on screen. I mean, another, another favorite fatherhood figure from social media. Do you guys know that bird dad? No. The dad who takes his little son around on his bike, and the son goes, "Bird." Naomi Fry: No. "Bird." That sounds very cute. Alex Schwartz: What- Oh, it's so adorable. Vinson Cunningham: No. Alex Schwartz: Let me find bird dad for you. He has this cute little son. Yeah, his handle is hello dimigy or dimegy, and his name is apparently Dim, D-I-M. Vinson Cunningham: Oh, Alex Schwartz: I have seen this guy. Mic'd up. I'm sure you've seen this, Vincent. Okay. I want- Wait. I wanna see. Yeah. CLIP: IG Alex Schwartz: He mics up his kids- Let's go birds now ... so you can hear the cute things this kidder- There ... kid's saying. CLIP: IG Alex Schwartz: There was recently a freakout because this little child asked for his own bike, and everyone was like, "No, we need him to be on your bike, Dad." Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, Naomi Fry: I know. You guys, can I ask- I, I wanna... I want some boots on the ground. You know, my child is older, so I'm, I'm not as exposed to this. But, um, you guys are both, yeah, on the playgrounds, pounding the pavement. Are we seeing, uh... Do you, do you see kind of like the new f- father in your forays to the playgrounds of various Brooklyn neighborhoods? Vinson Cunningham: You know, I'm, I'm really lucky in this regard because, uh, I have daughters who are almost 20 years apart in age. Naomi Fry: you're actually... You can tell us. Vinson Cunningham: And I will tell- How it Naomi Fry: changed. Vinson Cunningham: Did it change? There are m- many more dads running around after the child, asking them questions about snacks, stuff like this. Very, you know, cute stuff. Many more men doing this now than there were when I was raising my older daughter, Madison. Like, it is, it- It's, it's- In my lifetime, it has changed. Naomi Fry: It, it has changed. Vinson Cunningham: It has. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Um, the just, like, rote physical involvement. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: Even when the dad was there 20 years ago, he was often sitting on the bench on his phone. Naomi Fry: Yes. Vinson Cunningham: Sort of, like, saying things, but not... Now these guys are in the mix. Yes. It's a, it's a, it's a difference. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: I, I think the fact that it is so noticeable but also commonplace speaks to all of that. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. It, it reminds me, I have made a number of trips to Stockholm, Sweden in my time, and there you see the very strange sight of all these dads with strollers just hanging out with their kids in parks during the weekday- Well, Naomi Fry: because there's, like, Alex Schwartz: there's- Because of the generous parental leave policies. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And many Americans have been known to remark, "Why are there so many male nannies here?" Because it just is- Yes ... such a different situation- Naomi Fry: Yeah ... Alex Schwartz: than what we have here. But Vincent, I think you're putting your finger on exactly it, like the active engagement is the thing, and so are so many other mundane, banal tasks of parenthood that go along with that. Like, our producer sent us, um, a great article that I had missed that tickled me about a bunch of dads from The New York Times, about a bunch of dads, um, learning how to braid hair on these, like- Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Yeah ... Alex Schwartz: you know. Naomi Fry: There's these workshops. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, these workshops for, like- What's it called when you braid- Naomi Fry: Beers and Braids braids? Braids and Alex Schwartz: Beers. Or, like, something like that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Brews and Dos. Brews and Dos. There it is. There you go. Brews and Dos. Naomi Fry: There it is. Brews and Dos. So many op- so many alliterative options- Alex Schwartz: So many, Naomi Fry: so many good options ... for this very cute preoccupation. All of Vinson Cunningham: these are possible. Naomi Fry: Pints and Ponytails in, in the London chapter of this situation. Alex Schwartz: Pints and Ponytails. I mean, the ones, the ones that we were looking in the Times article, they were being taught how to do fishtail braids, and how to do, I don't know, k- things that I don't know how to do. Naomi Fry: I need that. Exactly. Right. I need, I need Alex Schwartz: a Brews and Dos. Looking at myself in the mirror thinking, "My Lord." "Can I get one of these dads- Naomi Fry: I Alex Schwartz: know ... over here to help out?" Naomi Fry: The work of femininity is, you know, passed, passed down by the, by the dads now, which is, you know, brings me to the, the, the kind of obviously fatherhood is not just about masculinity, but it's also about masculinity and what kind of, uh, and what kind of vision of that we have in our culture. This Brews and Dos situation is quite the, the kind of inverse of, of, um- You know, the, the kind of manosphere talk we've been so exposed to, right? For, oh, I mean, it's the- Over the past several years ... Alex Schwartz: it's the exact opposite. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And also not, not just something, I mean, of course, and not just something as severe as the manosphere. I mean, I'm thinking again, we talked earlier this year on the podcast about the novel Transcription by the novelist Ben Lerner. But in, as we're sitting here, it's coming up for me again because that book is about a lot of different things, about technology and about loss and the past, all, you know, all sorts of stuff, but one thing it really is about is about fatherhood. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There are two, there are three main dads in the novel. There's the narrator, there's the mentor professor he's going to visit who has his own son, and then later in the novel, there's the son of that- Yeah ... professor who speaks in a monologue about his own difficulties with his daughter, who is a young child, about 10, but has stopped eating, effectively. And there's this mirroring between the professor father and his son, the professor father who is totally uninvolved. Not, not a manosphere type. Not, not a men's rights type, just a, "I'm gonna live my life." Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: And you're- Vinson Cunningham: This isn't my deal. Alex Schwartz: And, yeah. And you're, and you're part of my life. Vinson Cunningham: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alex Schwartz: Um, and, and let the chips fall where they may. The kind of absent model that was the default for, for a very, very long time. And then you get this present part of the book where this father is so actively engaged in thinking about how to help his daughter and what to do, and it's not all brews and dos. It's not like- It's not all- Naomi Fry: Great- Not pints and ponytails, Alex Schwartz: either. It's not pints and ponytails, either. It's, it's not like, "Oh, great, I can now do my daughter's hair. What a great dad I am." I think part of what happens when fatherhood looks more like motherhood is that all the anxieties and the problems and the unfixables get transferred, too, and that's what- Mm Transcription, the novel Transcription does a very haunting job of evoking. Mm. When you're a parent, you're gonna succeed, but you're also gonna fail a lot. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You know what, what that makes me think of, too, is the literal symbol of food in, um, in Club Kid. One of the main things that shows us, like, he might be up to the task is he, like, makes a recipe and the kid is fine to eat it. Uh, recently there was a Slate article that's called, um, uh, Men at Work. It's by a writer named, uh, Luke Winkie, and it's all about how the task of specifically cooking has reversed valences in a lot of households of, like, you know, of a certain milieu, let's call it. Mm-hmm. Like the yuppie family. Yeah. Where the dad is the one who's on the Times app making a lot of- Yeah ... making, making recipes, et cetera, et cetera. He's the one that knows the Alison Roman fig jam, whatever, whatever the hell it's called. The, the- The Naomi Fry: shallot Vinson Cunningham: pasta ... shallot jam, shallot pasta, et cetera. Um, persuasively though, I guess, uh, in, in some ways the article argues that it's been basically a, a, a decades-long Also reversal in the fact that, like, cooking has become the fun chore. It is like the sort of... You know, as we watch how, how, how... Yes, fathers have become more involved in different ways. Still, um, certain parts of the work that are more sort of like psychically and maybe creatively rewarding have stealthily like gone over into the dad column. Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm. Vinson Cunningham: You know, it cites this article, the, the advent of like cooking TV, the, the a- the emergence of the trope of the macho chef, et cetera, et cetera, Bourdain. All of a sudden, like the way to be like the Fonz is to be a guy who knows how to cook and knows where to eat- Totally ... or whatever. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Um, but it's just interesting how these tropes change where, you know, if you watch Mad Men and you watch Betty Draper make her terrible like TV-looking dinners, you can see it, cooking is just drudge work. Alex Schwartz: Mm-hmm. Naomi Fry: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: And all of a sudden today it is this way to show style. And now- And because it's that, now the man gets to do it. So it, it's interesting. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. I love that because nothing will humble you faster than trying to use cooking as a way to show style and trying to feed it to a child. A Vinson Cunningham: child, yeah, forget about it. Yeah. Sorry. Alex Schwartz: Hope that works out. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think, Vinson, what you're touching on, I mean it's a specific example, but I think it has to do generally with like the rise of the figure of the new dad has to do with kind of larger dem- demographic changes, you know? Uh, it's like it might be that the dad has kind of like the valence of cooking has risen as the dad is doing it now because the mom is working outside of the house. Mm-hmm. And maybe the dad since the pandemic has lost- Got a laptop Vinson Cunningham: job Naomi Fry: and can do it from home. Yeah ... got a laptop job and is working from home. Or, you know, there are kind of larger demographic changes, right, that have led to a more recent role for Dad, right? Alex Schwartz: Oh, I think for... I think it's indisputably true. Yeah. I mean, there, there was, there was a really interesting opinion column in The Times last year by Jessica Grose who writes about parenting issues. It's called A Great Leap Forward for American Fathers, and you can even just glance at the charts that are embedded in this article and see that the pandemic supercharged this. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, all these trends are true. More women in the workplace, women earning more, all of these kinds of things, and then you see the pandemic and you see this line. This is... The, the chart I'm looking at is the number of minutes millennial fathers, not like fathers from different generations, but just millennial fathers spent on childcare grew by more than 15 minutes between 2015 and 2023. Okay. Mm. 15 minutes doesn't seem huge, but you're looking at... If you're looking at the way this line is going, it is very significant. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: It's trending upwards. Alex Schwartz: Yeah, I think... And I think- I mean- ... there's like a personal fulfillment aspect here too. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, we, we liked doing some of this stuff. It's fun. Yes. Jessica Grose has this, um, this int- she makes this interesting point which is that based on data on paternity leave in other countries- We know that when dads spend more time with their babies, they want to increasingly spend more time. Mm-hmm. It's, it's sticky. This affection is sticky. Naomi Fry: I mean, I think the question that I'm curious about, guys, is what, if any, depictions of fatherhood have you incorporated or want to incorporate into your- Vinson Cunningham: Mm ... Naomi Fry: parenting approach? Might you wanna take the kid to the club, Alex? Alex Schwartz: Vincent, how co- like, as the dad here, how consciously do you think about this, or are you just living your life trying to be normal? Vinson Cunningham: I think about it all the time. Alex Schwartz: Yeah. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. I think, I, I, I don't know, I guess this is like, I'm sure everybody thinks of this in this way, but I definitely think of fatherhood and thinking about it as one of the great motifs of my actual life. Like, I lost my father when I was 10 years old, and then I became a father when I was 20 years old. So I only had like, I had 10 years where I was neither someone's son nor someone's father. And so I j- I just, I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I do feel, I guess I've always felt like- The mess dad who's, like, good at some parts of it and very bad at others, and I'm always trying to, like, commensurate those into one image. And this is not exclusive to fatherhood, but let's face it, like, once you're a f- a, the moment you become a parent, the performance of the, the role, the parenthood role, but certainly the fatherhood role, which is so kind of overblown, it's like nobody can actually inhabit it. Like, you think of, you know, f- the father as it's, uh, you know, in, in culture it's like the person who ruined you or the person who saves you. And of course, you're always both. Naomi Fry: It's both. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah. Naomi Fry: As are mothers. Vinson Cunningham: Yeah, yeah. Naomi Fry: You know? I think, I think it's interesting for me to hear this, Vinson, because of course it makes sense you think about it all the time. And, you know, because for me, of course, I think about fathers, but of course as a mother and as a child to a mother, I think about motherhood and the kind of impossibility- of, you know, you said, like, "I, I think of myself as this kind of father who's, like, really good in some ways and bad in others." Yeah. Like, welcome to life, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You know? But I do think there are more models for fatherhood right now than there used to be. Alex Schwartz: Absolutely. Yeah. Softness, vulnerability, humanity, all of these things which seem so standard issue- Mm-hmm and are truly gender-neutral- Naomi Fry: Mm-hmm ... Alex Schwartz: are being reclaimed as an aspect of fatherhood and embraced as an aspect of fatherhood. Let it, let it go on. Naomi Fry: Let it rip. Vinson Cunningham: Amen. Naomi Fry: Amen. This has been Critics at Large. Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Huchman, and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy, with music by Alexis Cuadrado. And as always, you can find all of our episodes at newyorker.com/critics